Discussion:
Business, enviros stymied by GOV'T parking regs; united on Metro in N.VA
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Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
2004-01-05 01:01:25 UTC
Permalink
From the Fairfax County Chamber of Commerce:

http://www.fccc.org/News/WashPost_tysons_project.htm

IN THE NEWS

Tysons Project Adds Dimension To Rail Proposal

Officials Call the Need for Metro Service Obvious,
But Numbers May Not Agree --
By Peter Whoriskey Sunday, June 22, 2003


The notion that Metrorail tracks ought to run to Tysons Corner,
the capital region's second-largest jobs hub, is viewed by the
project's many supporters as an article of unassailable common sense.

But as business and political leaders prepare to lobby for
federal money to cover half the estimated $1.5 billion in
construction costs, its fate may ride on one unanswered question.

Will the sprawling highway crossroads area ever become the sort
of dense walkable "downtown" that can spur train travel and
justify the vast investment needed to lay the tracks?

Some believe the answer came last week when the Fairfax County
Board of Supervisors approved a landmark complex of eight towers
on a site between the malls -- Tysons Corner Center and Tysons
Galleria -- and right next to what would be the Tysons Central
Metro stop.

Its boosters say the project sets the tone for a more urban
setting at Tysons Corner. But as an exercise in creating a place
that will accommodate mass transit, the Tysons project is no more
than a faint echo of the most successful Metro stop developments
around suburban Washington.

Compared with the development around the Ballston and Bethesda
stops, for example, the recently approved Tysons project is less
than one-third as dense, provides about 50 percent more parking
and creates a less hospitable environment for pedestrians -- the
roads are wider, the blocks are longer and the streetscapes less lively.

It's not just a matter of aesthetics. As the Federal Transit
Administration determines which rail projects are worthy of
funding, such issues are considered fundamental.

"It's an awkward attempt at transit-oriented development," said
Warren Boeschenstein, a University of Virginia professor who has
studied mass transit's potential in Northern Virginia, referring
to the Tysons project. "It really looks auto-oriented."

Tysons Corner is, of course, unquestionably busy -- and rich in
potential train riders: Besides being an employment center, its
two malls draw more than 25 million visitors annually. The appeal
of train transportation there may be limited. The number of
projected weekday boardings at the Tysons Central Metro stop
is less than half the number of boardings for Ballston or Bethesda,
according to the 2010 and 2025 model projections run by the Dulles
Corridor Rapid Transit Project, which is pushing the rail plan.

Its supporters nevertheless see the new Tysons development as a
marked improvement over the less dense plans previously approved
for the site. For better or worse, the project design in many
senses was a group effort: Many of the key decisions that shaped it
were made not by the developer but by county regulators.

The density and the amount of parking, for example, were set
based on county rules.

"No, it's not Ballston density. It's not a downtown D.C. density,"
said Peter Rosen of Lerner Enterprises. "But it goes back to the
density permitted in the county's comprehensive plan. There was no
point in studying anything greater than that."

"It's a great step forward for mass transit in Fairfax County,"
Bill Lecos, president of the Fairfax County Chamber of Commerce,
told supervisors during last week's hearing. He then alluded to
the development's role in the competition for federal transit money.
"This sends a critical message to others in terms of the county's
support for mass transit and its importance in advancing the
financing plan."

The race for Federal Transit Administration dollars for
rail projects, in fact, appears extremely competitive.

Metropolitan areas across the country are seeking funding
for a total of about $24 billion in transit projects. Yet
the available funding would cover roughly one-third of that.

To distinguish among the winners and losers, Federal Transit
Administration reviewers grade proposals on three basic issues:
financing, cost effectiveness and land development issues.

"Land use is a critical part of the rating," said Ron Fisher,
director of the agency's Office of Project Planning, who
emphasized that he was not speaking of any particular project.
"We look at density -- the more the better," he said. "We look
at the character of the development -- is it good for pedestrians?"

"Sometimes half of the rating could come down to land use. It's a
reflection of the importance we place on transit-oriented development."

In evaluating development near transit stations, planners generally
focus on land within a half-mile radius -- places close enough for
an easy walk. They favor more density in these areas because more
offices, or more homes, means more potential transit riders.

They also strive to make sure that the area's sidewalks are
comfortable and attractive for pedestrians. In practice, this comes
down to narrower streets, wide sidewalks lined with shops, not the
blank walls of garages. Currently, some workers in Tysons Corner
complain that they eat lunch at their desks simply to avoid the
hassle of crossing streets.

And finally, planners and transit modelers consider the availability
and pricing of parking. More parking simply makes driving, not transit,
more attractive.

In the Tysons area as a whole, there is a relative abundance, much
of it free. The Tysons project will have 2.6 parking spaces for every
1,000 square feet of office space, for example, while projects at
Bethesda and Ballston typically are required to have 1.9 or less.

"I would question seriously the efficacy of the whole project,"
said Chris Nelson, a Virginia Tech urban planning professor based in
Alexandria, who has studied parking ratios near an Atlanta transit
line. "When you're at that amount of parking, that's not a whole lot
different than what you'd get in a suburban office campus."

Advocates for the project nevertheless argue that it should be
considered transit-oriented because it is denser than what was
previously planned for the property. Moreover, as the project is
developed in the coming decades, it is possible that further
additions and refinements may be made.

"This project is not the giant leap forward it could have been,"
said Fairfax County Supervisor Gerald E. Connolly (D), whose
Providence District includes Tysons. But "this rezoning is not
the final word on what will be built there." Like others in
Fairfax County, Connolly too, considers the rail to Tyons
project a necessity with its own overwhelming logic:

"It doesn't even pass the giggle test that this area could not
be served by rail." © 2003 The Washington Post Company

Tysons Master Plan:

http://www.tysons2.com/master.html

http://www.tysons2.com/press_061703.html
Keith F. Lynch
2004-01-05 04:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson <***@erols.com> wrote:
Why not edit your header so we know which one of you it it?
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
http://www.fccc.org/News/WashPost_tysons_project.htm
By Peter Whoriskey Sunday, June 22, 2003
The notion that Metrorail tracks ought to run to Tysons Corner, the
capital region's second-largest jobs hub, is viewed by the project's
many supporters as an article of unassailable common sense.
Yes. Rail should go everywhere that isn't completely rural. And some
places that are.
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
But as business and political leaders prepare to lobby for federal
money to cover half the estimated $1.5 billion in construction
costs, its fate may ride on one unanswered question.
Maybe someone should work on figuring out how to build it for some
slightly less insane price. How about $1.5 million instead of $1.5
billion. How many miles are we talking about?
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
Will the sprawling highway crossroads area ever become the sort of
dense walkable "downtown" that can spur train travel and justify the
vast investment needed to lay the tracks?
I find Tysons perfectly walkable. A train station would be nice, but
Tysons really only needs one. Not four. Meanwhile, the existing Dunn
Loring station isn't all that far a hike.

If you want to see something pedestrian-unfriendly, try walking the
length of Prosperity Avenue. A narrow road with heavy traffic and no
sidewalks or shoulders. In some places you can walk through people's
yards. But in other places, fences or shrubbery blocks that, and you
have to walk inches from heavy speeding traffic. Half the cars will
helpfully pound their horn at you.

I think Prosperity Avenue, Idlylwood, Guinea, etc., should be fixed
before one cent is spent on pedestrian improvements at Tysons.
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
... a less hospitable environment for pedestrians -- the roads are
wider, the blocks are longer and the streetscapes less lively.
If there are sidewalks, it doesn't matter how wide the roads are.
If there aren't, then narrow roads are *worse*.

I don't care about how lively the streetscapes are. If I'm walking,
I already have a destination.
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
In evaluating development near transit stations, planners generally
focus on land within a half-mile radius -- places close enough for
an easy walk.
Why don't we start by getting a Metro station within two miles of
every point in DC and the suburbs? Until we have that, a half-mile
standard is absurdly utopian. Why force some people to walk ten miles
so that others won't have to walk 3/4 of a mile?

A lot more homes, schools, and businesses could be within 1/2 mile of
a Metro station if they didn't surround them with giant parking lots.
It's especially absurd to propose a giant parking lot for a station at
Tysons, since the whole point of a Tysons station is for people who
work, shop, or live within walking distance of the station. Why would
a car ever be parked there?

Metro could open plenty of new area within walking distance of the
West Falls Church station simply by providing an exit on the north
side of that station. As it is, people who live close enough to see
the station, and even to hear "Doors Closing!," have to walk several
miles to actually catch a train.
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
They also strive to make sure that the area's sidewalks are
comfortable and attractive for pedestrians. In practice, this comes
down to narrower streets, wide sidewalks lined with shops, not the
blank walls of garages.
I don't care about blank walls. I *do* care about idiots who park
vehicles on their sidewalks, or who use them to store garbage, leaves,
or snow. Maybe if the laws against impeding a public right of way
were enforced...
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
In the Tysons area as a whole, there is a relative abundance, much
of it free. The Tysons project will have 2.6 parking spaces for
every 1,000 square feet of office space, for example, while projects
at Bethesda and Ballston typically are required to have 1.9 or less.
Is 2.6 a government-mandated requirement? If so, the solution is
obvious -- get rid of the requirement. How is anyone supposed to open
a new shop, or a new office, if they have to also build a massive
parking garage to go with it, even if almost all the shoppers and
employees will be arriving by train, by bus, or on foot?
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
"When you're at that amount of parking, that's not a whole lot
different than what you'd get in a suburban office campus."
Well, of course. Tysons *is* a suburban office campus. What does he
think it is?
--
Keith F. Lynch - ***@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/
I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but
unsolicited bulk e-mail (spam) is not acceptable. Please do not send me
HTML, "rich text," or attachments, as all such email is discarded unread.
John R Cambron
2004-01-05 06:33:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Why not edit your header so we know which one of you it it?
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
http://www.fccc.org/News/WashPost_tysons_project.htm
By Peter Whoriskey Sunday, June 22, 2003
The notion that Metrorail tracks ought to run to Tysons Corner, the
capital region's second-largest jobs hub, is viewed by the project's
many supporters as an article of unassailable common sense.
Yes. Rail should go everywhere that isn't completely rural. And some
places that are.
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
But as business and political leaders prepare to lobby for federal
money to cover half the estimated $1.5 billion in construction
costs, its fate may ride on one unanswered question.
Maybe someone should work on figuring out how to build it for some
slightly less insane price. How about $1.5 million instead of $1.5
billion. How many miles are we talking about?
23.5 miles. Oh, and by the way $1.5 million wouldn't pay for the
all of the escalators and elevators in just one of 11 stations
on the proposed line.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
Will the sprawling highway crossroads area ever become the sort of
dense walkable "downtown" that can spur train travel and justify the
vast investment needed to lay the tracks?
I find Tysons perfectly walkable. A train station would be nice, but
Tysons really only needs one. Not four. Meanwhile, the existing Dunn
Loring station isn't all that far a hike.
If you want to see something pedestrian-unfriendly, try walking the
length of Prosperity Avenue. A narrow road with heavy traffic and no
sidewalks or shoulders. In some places you can walk through people's
yards. But in other places, fences or shrubbery blocks that, and you
have to walk inches from heavy speeding traffic. Half the cars will
helpfully pound their horn at you.
I think Prosperity Avenue, Idlylwood, Guinea, etc., should be fixed
before one cent is spent on pedestrian improvements at Tysons.
We have gone down this road before, please pardon my choice of words.
Keith, your definition "perfectly walkable" may not be the same as
others.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
... a less hospitable environment for pedestrians -- the roads are
wider, the blocks are longer and the streetscapes less lively.
If there are sidewalks, it doesn't matter how wide the roads are.
If there aren't, then narrow roads are *worse*.
I don't care about how lively the streetscapes are. If I'm walking,
I already have a destination.
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
In evaluating development near transit stations, planners generally
focus on land within a half-mile radius -- places close enough for
an easy walk.
Why don't we start by getting a Metro station within two miles of
every point in DC and the suburbs? Until we have that, a half-mile
standard is absurdly utopian. Why force some people to walk ten miles
so that others won't have to walk 3/4 of a mile?
A lot more homes, schools, and businesses could be within 1/2 mile of
a Metro station if they didn't surround them with giant parking lots.
It's especially absurd to propose a giant parking lot for a station at
Tysons, since the whole point of a Tysons station is for people who
work, shop, or live within walking distance of the station. Why would
a car ever be parked there?
Metro could open plenty of new area within walking distance of the
West Falls Church station simply by providing an exit on the north
side of that station. As it is, people who live close enough to see
the station, and even to hear "Doors Closing!," have to walk several
miles to actually catch a train.
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
They also strive to make sure that the area's sidewalks are
comfortable and attractive for pedestrians. In practice, this comes
down to narrower streets, wide sidewalks lined with shops, not the
blank walls of garages.
I don't care about blank walls. I *do* care about idiots who park
vehicles on their sidewalks, or who use them to store garbage, leaves,
or snow. Maybe if the laws against impeding a public right of way
were enforced...
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
In the Tysons area as a whole, there is a relative abundance, much
of it free. The Tysons project will have 2.6 parking spaces for
every 1,000 square feet of office space, for example, while projects
at Bethesda and Ballston typically are required to have 1.9 or less.
Is 2.6 a government-mandated requirement? If so, the solution is
obvious -- get rid of the requirement. How is anyone supposed to open
a new shop, or a new office, if they have to also build a massive
parking garage to go with it, even if almost all the shoppers and
employees will be arriving by train, by bus, or on foot?
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
"When you're at that amount of parking, that's not a whole lot
different than what you'd get in a suburban office campus."
Well, of course. Tysons *is* a suburban office campus. What does he
think it is?
--
I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but
unsolicited bulk e-mail (spam) is not acceptable. Please do not send me
HTML, "rich text," or attachments, as all such email is discarded unread.
--
======================================================================
Ever wanted one of these John R Cambron
http://205.130.220.18/~cambronj/wmata/ or >>>Hebron<<< MD USA
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/ ***@chesapeake.net
======================================================================
Aidan Stanger
2004-01-08 03:37:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
http://www.fccc.org/News/WashPost_tysons_project.htm
IN THE NEWS
Tysons Project Adds Dimension To Rail Proposal
Officials Call the Need for Metro Service Obvious,
But Numbers May Not Agree --
By Peter Whoriskey Sunday, June 22, 2003
The notion that Metrorail tracks ought to run to Tysons Corner,
the capital region's second-largest jobs hub, is viewed by the
project's many supporters as an article of unassailable common sense.
Has anyone got a URL for a map of the proposed route?
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
But as business and political leaders prepare to lobby for
federal money to cover half the estimated $1.5 billion in
construction costs, its fate may ride on one unanswered question.
Will the sprawling highway crossroads area ever become the sort
of dense walkable "downtown" that can spur train travel and
justify the vast investment needed to lay the tracks?
I expect that it's a case of Build It And They Will Become!

However, the question assumes too much. Although walkability is
essential, high density may not be.
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
Some believe the answer came last week when the Fairfax County
Board of Supervisors approved a landmark complex of eight towers
on a site between the malls -- Tysons Corner Center and Tysons
Galleria -- and right next to what would be the Tysons Central
Metro stop.
(snip)
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
"It's an awkward attempt at transit-oriented development," said
Warren Boeschenstein, a University of Virginia professor who has
studied mass transit's potential in Northern Virginia, referring
to the Tysons project. "It really looks auto-oriented."
Considering the railway doesn't reach there yet, isn't that the
commercially sensible way to do it?

Development won't work unless you can get people there easily! Therefore
large carparks would be needed at first, but they could be built on
after the railway comes.
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
Tysons Corner is, of course, unquestionably busy -- and rich in
potential train riders: Besides being an employment center, its
two malls draw more than 25 million visitors annually. The appeal
of train transportation there may be limited.
What would limit it?
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
The number of
projected weekday boardings at the Tysons Central Metro stop
is less than half the number of boardings for Ballston or Bethesda,
according to the 2010 and 2025 model projections run by the Dulles
Corridor Rapid Transit Project, which is pushing the rail plan.
Do you know what assumptions they're making?
Keith F. Lynch
2004-01-08 04:06:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aidan Stanger
Has anyone got a URL for a map of the proposed route?
If you're local, the Tysons mall has a scale model. Upper level, at
the end opposite the Bloomingdale's.

(Yes, I see you're posting from an Australian address, but you're
posting to DC newsgroups, so I don't know where you actually are.)
--
Keith F. Lynch - ***@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/
I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but
unsolicited bulk e-mail (spam) is not acceptable. Please do not send me
HTML, "rich text," or attachments, as all such email is discarded unread.
John R Cambron
2004-01-08 04:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aidan Stanger
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
http://www.fccc.org/News/WashPost_tysons_project.htm
IN THE NEWS
Tysons Project Adds Dimension To Rail Proposal
Officials Call the Need for Metro Service Obvious,
But Numbers May Not Agree --
By Peter Whoriskey Sunday, June 22, 2003
The notion that Metrorail tracks ought to run to Tysons Corner,
the capital region's second-largest jobs hub, is viewed by the
project's many supporters as an article of unassailable common sense.
Has anyone got a URL for a map of the proposed route?
http://www.dullestransit.com/mapsphotos/corridormaps/index.cfm

JPG format;

http://www.dullestransit.com/htm/es/lpa/lpafull.html

Better and closer detail can bee sean in the PDF format versions.

This page has all of the alternative that were proposed during
the process leading op to the LPA Locally Preferred Alternative
that was approved by the agencies involved in the final selection.

The main page for the project is at;

http://www.dullestransit.com

The site is best viewed with Microsoft Internet Explorer as some
versions Netscape have trouble properly rendering the pages.
--
======================================================================
Ever wanted one of these John R Cambron
http://205.130.220.18/~cambronj/wmata/ or >>>Hebron<<< MD USA
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/ ***@chesapeake.net
======================================================================
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