Discussion:
"Forced Migration May Ultimately Help The Poor"
(too old to reply)
Robinsons
2005-09-18 09:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Forced Migration May Ultimately Help The Poor


Posted by: Chris Steins
Thanks to: Margy Waller (Brookings Institution)
13 September, 2005 - 9:00am

(Planetizen.com - The internet resource for
professional architects and urban planners)

Mark Alan Hughes predicts some of NOLA's poor
will be better off in a couple years
as a result of forced relocation
to more prosperous places.

Hughes points out that Katrina exposed many things:
the bleak prospects for poor residents in New Orleans,
"our appalling unpreparedness for catastrophic
consequences four years after 9/11, George W. Bush's
callous disregard for the government he heads and the
breadth of support in this country for
government that matters."

Yet, Katrina may prove to be a promising new beginning for some
of poor residents forced to evacuate. At least for those people
fortunate enough to be sheltered in a place that is growing,
not declining.

"Older American cities...have become warehouses
for people whose prospects would be brighter in
other places. But immediate obligations, lack of
resources and information, and plain old inertia
anchor people in places that are declining.

Katrina relocated people in the harshest possible
way, possibly killing thousands and driving
hundreds of thousands away with little or nothing.

If I had the budget, I'd track...poor and near-poor
people who've found refuge in economically
healthier places....I bet that two or three years from
now, most of those folks will be earning more
money in better jobs with their kids attending better
schools in safer neighborhoods....

The lesson of the Mayflower, the frontier, the
Dust Bowl and probably Katrina is that the
eventual happy ending for poor people comes from
relocation more than rebuilding."

Source: Philadelphia Daily News, Sep 13, 2005

Full Story: EVEN A KATRINA CAN BLOW SOME GOOD

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/opinion/12630505.htm

Lucky Ducks!!!!



----------

Should The New New Orleans Be Downsized?

15 September, 2005 - 1:00pm
Wall Street Journal

Economists debate whether the future New Orleans
be downsized? 'Colonial Williamsburg' and other
controversial models are pondered.

--------------

Katrina's Silver Lining

Posted by: Abhijeet Chavan
9 September, 2005 - 8:00am

David Brooks argues that Hurricane Katrina has
created an opportunity to address urban poverty.

"Hurricane Katrina has given us an amazing chance
to do something serious about urban poverty.
[It has] given us a chance to rebuild a
city that wasn't working...

"For New Orleans, the key will be luring middle-class
families into the rebuilt city, making it so attractive
to them that they will move in, even knowing that their
blocks will include a certain number of poor people."

Source: New York Times, Sep 08, 2005

-----------------------

"Many experts also warned against moving too
quickly, arguing that being away from the city
could help residents clarify what was most valued
and should be reclaimed. "

-----------------------

Source: New York Times, Sep 14, 2005

Such as... hmm... their schools?

Nah. CLOSED for 9 months!!!!!!!

Tough luck Public School Proles!

Clear your minds in that country air!

"Government that matters" indeed. All we hunger for
is a government that will protect us when the LOOTers
come callin'. It's for their own good not to congregate
in numbers, they need to associate with people who have
"a culture that values work"!! that's why moving to Arkansas
makes it all worthwhile to see ones entire family drown
(according to the Washington Post).

--Brian R.
George Conklin
2005-09-18 14:05:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robinsons
city that wasn't working...
"For New Orleans, the key will be luring middle-class
families into the rebuilt city, making it so attractive
to them that they will move in, even knowing that their
blocks will include a certain number of poor people."
Source: New York Times, Sep 08, 2005
If the poor find better prospects from 'moving on,' then the middle
class will find even BETTER chances from moving on much farther way.
Robert Cote
2005-09-18 14:36:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robinsons
city that wasn't working...
"For New Orleans, the key will be luring middle-class
families into the rebuilt city, making it so attractive
to them that they will move in, even knowing that their
blocks will include a certain number of poor people."
Source: New York Times, Sep 08, 2005
If the poor find better prospects from 'moving on,' then the middle
class will find even BETTER chances from moving on much farther way.
They've already been doing that for decades. New Orleans provides a
unique opportunity to actually measure revealed preference under
controlled conditions. As BERobinson points out in his latest selective
and edited posts New Orleans was abandoned long ago by the wealth and
class and choice portions of the demographic.

As I predicted the VULTURs (Very Urban Land Transformation Urbanist
Revolutionaries) are busy marking their territory and squabbling over
the corpse.
George Conklin
2005-09-18 19:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robinsons
city that wasn't working...
"For New Orleans, the key will be luring middle-class
families into the rebuilt city, making it so attractive
to them that they will move in, even knowing that their
blocks will include a certain number of poor people."
Source: New York Times, Sep 08, 2005
If the poor find better prospects from 'moving on,' then the middle
class will find even BETTER chances from moving on much farther way.
They've already been doing that for decades. New Orleans provides a
unique opportunity to actually measure revealed preference under
controlled conditions. As BERobinson points out in his latest selective
and edited posts New Orleans was abandoned long ago by the wealth and
class and choice portions of the demographic.
As I predicted the VULTURs (Very Urban Land Transformation Urbanist
Revolutionaries) are busy marking their territory and squabbling over
the corpse.
I wonder where all that $200 billion is going if FEMA limits each
homeowner to just $26,000? Do you have any idea? What can you do with that
limited amount except pay someone to clean up the lot? Then each house must
be brought up to current code, which would be impossible even if they have
NOT been flooded. Will every last homeowner have to declare bankruptcy and
let government bail out the banks over ruined homeowners? It sounds worse
every day. The SSS is scheduled to have its convention in NO in March, and
the Monteleone hotel says that it is in great shape and we must go there.
The SSS leadership says we must support NO and go. I wonder if the sewers
will be working by then. Amtrak? (I go by Amtrak usually).
Jack May
2005-09-18 20:15:18 UTC
Permalink
"George Conklin" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:WfjXe.353$***@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Amtrak?

Maybe this is the death of Amtrak and rail transit because rebuilding and
the military takes so much of the budget that there will be major cuts in a
lot of less vital areas.

I know this is probably wishing for a miracle, but maybe Congress may be
forced to shift to a system where the only programs that can be funded are
those that are proven to being of the most vital of all programs for the
country. In the wildest fantasy, pork may become almost impossible to
justify.
Robert Cote
2005-09-20 17:09:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robert Cote
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robinsons
city that wasn't working...
"For New Orleans, the key will be luring middle-class
families into the rebuilt city, making it so attractive
to them that they will move in, even knowing that their
blocks will include a certain number of poor people."
Source: New York Times, Sep 08, 2005
If the poor find better prospects from 'moving on,' then the middle
class will find even BETTER chances from moving on much farther way.
They've already been doing that for decades. New Orleans provides a
unique opportunity to actually measure revealed preference under
controlled conditions. As BERobinson points out in his latest selective
and edited posts New Orleans was abandoned long ago by the wealth and
class and choice portions of the demographic.
As I predicted the VULTURs (Very Urban Land Transformation Urbanist
Revolutionaries) are busy marking their territory and squabbling over
the corpse.
I wonder where all that $200 billion is going if FEMA limits each
homeowner to just $26,000?
Can you imagine paying WTC families $2.3 million and Katrina families
$26k? $200b is $700 each man woman and child from the "rest of us" to
the "victims." Luckily the diaspora has served to break the cycle of
dependence and a great many are not going back to their old lives.
Haven't you heard the stories of people falling in love with Houston
after only two weeks? Someone I respect (a retired Soc Prof) used to
call this Wrecking Ball Therapy for the dysfunctional OPACs (Obsolete
Pre-Automotive Cities). Cruel and disruptive but necessary to break the
status quo of dependency. Can you imagine -any- of the people trapped
in the city -ever- deciding to remain car-free? No way, they're buying
Hummers and trailers with their disaster grants.
Post by George Conklin
Do you have any idea?
Compassionate relocation including bribery if necessary.
Post by George Conklin
What can you do with that
limited amount except pay someone to clean up the lot? Then each house must
be brought up to current code, which would be impossible even if they have
NOT been flooded. Will every last homeowner have to declare bankruptcy and
let government bail out the banks over ruined homeowners? It sounds worse
every day.
I like the idea of wetlands restoration personally. Nature preserves
are "nice" and in this case cheap and then the next time we can call the
flooding natural. Keep the Disney portion, it wasn't hurt that bad and
move on.
Post by George Conklin
The SSS is scheduled to have its convention in NO in March, and
the Monteleone hotel says that it is in great shape and we must go there.
The SSS leadership says we must support NO and go. I wonder if the sewers
will be working by then.
Doesn't this sound a lot like the "support your local merchants" that
never works?
Post by George Conklin
Amtrak? (I go by Amtrak usually).
Careful, Amtrak often restores "service" with buses.
Martin Edwards
2005-09-21 17:28:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robert Cote
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robinsons
city that wasn't working...
"For New Orleans, the key will be luring middle-class
families into the rebuilt city, making it so attractive
to them that they will move in, even knowing that their
blocks will include a certain number of poor people."
Source: New York Times, Sep 08, 2005
If the poor find better prospects from 'moving on,' then the middle
class will find even BETTER chances from moving on much farther way.
They've already been doing that for decades. New Orleans provides a
unique opportunity to actually measure revealed preference under
controlled conditions. As BERobinson points out in his latest selective
and edited posts New Orleans was abandoned long ago by the wealth and
class and choice portions of the demographic.
As I predicted the VULTURs (Very Urban Land Transformation Urbanist
Revolutionaries) are busy marking their territory and squabbling over
the corpse.
I wonder where all that $200 billion is going if FEMA limits each
homeowner to just $26,000?
Can you imagine paying WTC families $2.3 million and Katrina families
$26k? $200b is $700 each man woman and child from the "rest of us" to
the "victims." Luckily the diaspora has served to break the cycle of
dependence and a great many are not going back to their old lives.
Haven't you heard the stories of people falling in love with Houston
after only two weeks? Someone I respect (a retired Soc Prof) used to
call this Wrecking Ball Therapy for the dysfunctional OPACs (Obsolete
Pre-Automotive Cities). Cruel and disruptive but necessary to break the
status quo of dependency. Can you imagine -any- of the people trapped
in the city -ever- deciding to remain car-free? No way, they're buying
Hummers and trailers with their disaster grants.
Post by George Conklin
Do you have any idea?
Compassionate relocation including bribery if necessary.
Post by George Conklin
What can you do with that
limited amount except pay someone to clean up the lot? Then each house must
be brought up to current code, which would be impossible even if they have
NOT been flooded. Will every last homeowner have to declare bankruptcy and
let government bail out the banks over ruined homeowners? It sounds worse
every day.
I like the idea of wetlands restoration personally. Nature preserves
are "nice" and in this case cheap and then the next time we can call the
flooding natural. Keep the Disney portion, it wasn't hurt that bad and
move on.
Precisely because the canny old French, all those centuries ago, knew
which bit was safe to build on.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
Robert Cote
2005-09-21 18:50:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Edwards
Post by Robert Cote
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robert Cote
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robinsons
city that wasn't working...
"For New Orleans, the key will be luring middle-class
families into the rebuilt city, making it so attractive
to them that they will move in, even knowing that their
blocks will include a certain number of poor people."
Source: New York Times, Sep 08, 2005
If the poor find better prospects from 'moving on,' then the middle
class will find even BETTER chances from moving on much farther way.
They've already been doing that for decades. New Orleans provides a
unique opportunity to actually measure revealed preference under
controlled conditions. As BERobinson points out in his latest selective
and edited posts New Orleans was abandoned long ago by the wealth and
class and choice portions of the demographic.
As I predicted the VULTURs (Very Urban Land Transformation Urbanist
Revolutionaries) are busy marking their territory and squabbling over
the corpse.
I wonder where all that $200 billion is going if FEMA limits each
homeowner to just $26,000?
Can you imagine paying WTC families $2.3 million and Katrina families
$26k? $200b is $700 each man woman and child from the "rest of us" to
the "victims." Luckily the diaspora has served to break the cycle of
dependence and a great many are not going back to their old lives.
Haven't you heard the stories of people falling in love with Houston
after only two weeks? Someone I respect (a retired Soc Prof) used to
call this Wrecking Ball Therapy for the dysfunctional OPACs (Obsolete
Pre-Automotive Cities). Cruel and disruptive but necessary to break the
status quo of dependency. Can you imagine -any- of the people trapped
in the city -ever- deciding to remain car-free? No way, they're buying
Hummers and trailers with their disaster grants.
Post by George Conklin
Do you have any idea?
Compassionate relocation including bribery if necessary.
Post by George Conklin
What can you do with that
limited amount except pay someone to clean up the lot? Then each house must
be brought up to current code, which would be impossible even if they have
NOT been flooded. Will every last homeowner have to declare bankruptcy and
let government bail out the banks over ruined homeowners? It sounds worse
every day.
I like the idea of wetlands restoration personally. Nature preserves
are "nice" and in this case cheap and then the next time we can call the
flooding natural. Keep the Disney portion, it wasn't hurt that bad and
move on.
Precisely because the canny old French, all those centuries ago, knew
which bit was safe to build on.
Corollary: Those stupid English ignored local wisdom and built the rest?

Conclusion: Return to the French that which was French. To the
interloping Anglais, we condemn thee to a deserved watery grave.

I often reiterate; if we kill the poor the next in line become the new
poor. Somebody said it better about 1974 years ago; "the poor will
always be with us." Like it or not (I'm guessing you'll chose not)
poverty is concentrated with the olde city forms. Concentrated poverty
has not proven easier to address and as a matter of compassion needs to
be discouraged. The VULTURs -need- a victim to experiment upon, New
Orleans seems a likely test subject.
Baxter
2005-09-22 03:32:56 UTC
Permalink
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
... Like it or not (I'm guessing you'll chose not)
poverty is concentrated with the olde city forms.
Actually, certainly historically, poverty has been concentrated in rural
areas. Cities have provided the poor an opportunity to better themselves.
Robert Cote
2005-09-22 13:33:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
... Like it or not (I'm guessing you'll chose not)
poverty is concentrated with the olde city forms.
Actually, certainly historically, poverty has been concentrated in rural
areas. Cities have provided the poor an opportunity to better themselves.
Doesn't even come close to addressing my point that you so inelegantly
stripped from context.
Martin Edwards
2005-09-22 15:46:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Martin Edwards
Post by Robert Cote
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robert Cote
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robinsons
city that wasn't working...
"For New Orleans, the key will be luring middle-class
families into the rebuilt city, making it so attractive
to them that they will move in, even knowing that their
blocks will include a certain number of poor people."
Source: New York Times, Sep 08, 2005
If the poor find better prospects from 'moving on,' then the middle
class will find even BETTER chances from moving on much farther way.
They've already been doing that for decades. New Orleans provides a
unique opportunity to actually measure revealed preference under
controlled conditions. As BERobinson points out in his latest selective
and edited posts New Orleans was abandoned long ago by the wealth and
class and choice portions of the demographic.
As I predicted the VULTURs (Very Urban Land Transformation Urbanist
Revolutionaries) are busy marking their territory and squabbling over
the corpse.
I wonder where all that $200 billion is going if FEMA limits each
homeowner to just $26,000?
Can you imagine paying WTC families $2.3 million and Katrina families
$26k? $200b is $700 each man woman and child from the "rest of us" to
the "victims." Luckily the diaspora has served to break the cycle of
dependence and a great many are not going back to their old lives.
Haven't you heard the stories of people falling in love with Houston
after only two weeks? Someone I respect (a retired Soc Prof) used to
call this Wrecking Ball Therapy for the dysfunctional OPACs (Obsolete
Pre-Automotive Cities). Cruel and disruptive but necessary to break the
status quo of dependency. Can you imagine -any- of the people trapped
in the city -ever- deciding to remain car-free? No way, they're buying
Hummers and trailers with their disaster grants.
Post by George Conklin
Do you have any idea?
Compassionate relocation including bribery if necessary.
Post by George Conklin
What can you do with that
limited amount except pay someone to clean up the lot? Then each house must
be brought up to current code, which would be impossible even if they have
NOT been flooded. Will every last homeowner have to declare bankruptcy and
let government bail out the banks over ruined homeowners? It sounds worse
every day.
I like the idea of wetlands restoration personally. Nature preserves
are "nice" and in this case cheap and then the next time we can call the
flooding natural. Keep the Disney portion, it wasn't hurt that bad and
move on.
Precisely because the canny old French, all those centuries ago, knew
which bit was safe to build on.
Corollary: Those stupid English ignored local wisdom and built the rest?
Bearing in mind the kind of people we were getting rid of at the time,
that's more than likely.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
Robert Cote
2005-09-21 18:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Edwards
Post by Robert Cote
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robert Cote
Post by George Conklin
Post by Robinsons
city that wasn't working...
"For New Orleans, the key will be luring middle-class
families into the rebuilt city, making it so attractive
to them that they will move in, even knowing that their
blocks will include a certain number of poor people."
Source: New York Times, Sep 08, 2005
If the poor find better prospects from 'moving on,' then the middle
class will find even BETTER chances from moving on much farther way.
They've already been doing that for decades. New Orleans provides a
unique opportunity to actually measure revealed preference under
controlled conditions. As BERobinson points out in his latest selective
and edited posts New Orleans was abandoned long ago by the wealth and
class and choice portions of the demographic.
As I predicted the VULTURs (Very Urban Land Transformation Urbanist
Revolutionaries) are busy marking their territory and squabbling over
the corpse.
I wonder where all that $200 billion is going if FEMA limits each
homeowner to just $26,000?
Can you imagine paying WTC families $2.3 million and Katrina families
$26k? $200b is $700 each man woman and child from the "rest of us" to
the "victims." Luckily the diaspora has served to break the cycle of
dependence and a great many are not going back to their old lives.
Haven't you heard the stories of people falling in love with Houston
after only two weeks? Someone I respect (a retired Soc Prof) used to
call this Wrecking Ball Therapy for the dysfunctional OPACs (Obsolete
Pre-Automotive Cities). Cruel and disruptive but necessary to break the
status quo of dependency. Can you imagine -any- of the people trapped
in the city -ever- deciding to remain car-free? No way, they're buying
Hummers and trailers with their disaster grants.
Post by George Conklin
Do you have any idea?
Compassionate relocation including bribery if necessary.
Post by George Conklin
What can you do with that
limited amount except pay someone to clean up the lot? Then each house must
be brought up to current code, which would be impossible even if they have
NOT been flooded. Will every last homeowner have to declare bankruptcy and
let government bail out the banks over ruined homeowners? It sounds worse
every day.
I like the idea of wetlands restoration personally. Nature preserves
are "nice" and in this case cheap and then the next time we can call the
flooding natural. Keep the Disney portion, it wasn't hurt that bad and
move on.
Precisely because the canny old French, all those centuries ago, knew
which bit was safe to build on.
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Baxter
2005-09-22 03:33:39 UTC
Permalink
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
Bill
2005-09-22 06:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
LOL. You've obviously never been to Texas. Most of the state won't even see
a drop of rain from Rita.

"The sun has ris', the sun has set, and here I am, in Texas yet."

- B
b***@hotmail.com
2005-09-22 13:20:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by Baxter
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
LOL. You've obviously never been to Texas. Most of the state won't even see
a drop of rain from Rita.
Texas has about 20 million people. The Houston metro area has about 5
million people. A quarter of the state will get soaked. Most of the
state will see some rain.
Post by Bill
"The sun has ris', the sun has set, and here I am, in Texas yet."
- B
Bill
2005-09-25 17:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@hotmail.com
Post by Bill
Post by Baxter
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
LOL. You've obviously never been to Texas. Most of the state won't even see
a drop of rain from Rita.
Texas has about 20 million people. The Houston metro area has about 5
million people. A quarter of the state will get soaked. Most of the
state will see some rain.
If you're planning on becoming a weatherman, I suggest you keep you day job.
Less than a quarter of the state received any percip at all. Even Dallas,
which is pretty far east, never saw a drop.

- B
Robert Cote
2005-09-22 13:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
LOL. You've obviously never been to Texas. Most of the state won't even see
a drop of rain from Rita.
"The sun has ris', the sun has set, and here I am, in Texas yet."
A city boy was visitin' a Texas rancher. The rancher said, Ah kin get
up with the sun drive all mornin' and still be on my rach at lunch time.
The city slicker replies, "I had a car like that once."
Martin Edwards
2005-09-22 15:52:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Bill
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
LOL. You've obviously never been to Texas. Most of the state won't even see
a drop of rain from Rita.
"The sun has ris', the sun has set, and here I am, in Texas yet."
A city boy was visitin' a Texas rancher. The rancher said, Ah kin get
up with the sun drive all mornin' and still be on my rach at lunch time.
The city slicker replies, "I had a car like that once."
Texan tourist: Did you know your country would fit into one corner of my
state?
Posh Englishman: Yes, and wouldn't it make a difference?
Incidentally, that accent does exist, but it is much less common than
usually supposed.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
Robert Cote
2005-09-22 16:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Edwards
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Bill
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
LOL. You've obviously never been to Texas. Most of the state won't even see
a drop of rain from Rita.
"The sun has ris', the sun has set, and here I am, in Texas yet."
A city boy was visitin' a Texas rancher. The rancher said, Ah kin get
up with the sun drive all mornin' and still be on my ranch at lunch time.
The city slicker replies, "I had a car like that once."
Texan tourist: Did you know your country would fit into one corner of my
state?
Posh Englishman: Yes, and wouldn't it make a difference?
Incidentally, that accent does exist, but it is much less common than
usually supposed.
Ayuh, can't git theah from heah [downeast]. You'uns be surpized aht the
vay-rye-ity of 'Merican be spoken all over this here US of A [okie]. I
can often tell what part of New Jersey someone grew up in and can almost
always tell within a dozen miles of where in Eastern Massachusetts
someone lives just by their accent.

If the Gulf Stream exchange shuts down you might wish England were
tucked into a corner of Texas. This thread is "forced migration" after
all.
Martin Edwards
2005-09-25 15:09:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Martin Edwards
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Bill
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
LOL. You've obviously never been to Texas. Most of the state won't even see
a drop of rain from Rita.
"The sun has ris', the sun has set, and here I am, in Texas yet."
A city boy was visitin' a Texas rancher. The rancher said, Ah kin get
up with the sun drive all mornin' and still be on my ranch at lunch time.
The city slicker replies, "I had a car like that once."
Texan tourist: Did you know your country would fit into one corner of my
state?
Posh Englishman: Yes, and wouldn't it make a difference?
Incidentally, that accent does exist, but it is much less common than
usually supposed.
Ayuh, can't git theah from heah [downeast]. You'uns be surpized aht the
vay-rye-ity of 'Merican be spoken all over this here US of A [okie]. I
can often tell what part of New Jersey someone grew up in and can almost
always tell within a dozen miles of where in Eastern Massachusetts
someone lives just by their accent.
If the Gulf Stream exchange shuts down you might wish England were
tucked into a corner of Texas. This thread is "forced migration" after
all.
I understand Lafayette hasn't suffered too badly so far. I speak French.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
Martin Edwards
2005-09-22 15:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
Post by Baxter
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Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
LOL. You've obviously never been to Texas. Most of the state won't even see
a drop of rain from Rita.
"The sun has ris', the sun has set, and here I am, in Texas yet."
- B
Do you know why the trees bend at the West Texas border?
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
Robert Cote
2005-09-22 13:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
Which state is that Leroy? Certainly not the Great State of Texas where
the local and sate plans are providing a timely and orderly evacuation
of their highly mobil population to places largely in Texas. The
millions affected are a drop in the states population bucket. Your lack
of demographic data is no cause for wild claims.
Baxter
2005-09-22 19:32:10 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
Which state is that Leroy? Certainly not the Great State of Texas where
the local and sate plans are providing a timely and orderly evacuation
of their highly mobil population to places largely in Texas. The
millions affected are a drop in the states population bucket. Your lack
of demographic data is no cause for wild claims.
BTW - how about those 100-mile traffic jams?
Robert Cote
2005-09-22 19:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Rita may empty out another state.
Which state is that Leroy? Certainly not the Great State of Texas where
the local and sate plans are providing a timely and orderly evacuation
of their highly mobil population to places largely in Texas. The
millions affected are a drop in the states population bucket. Your lack
of demographic data is no cause for wild claims.
BTW - how about those 100-mile traffic jams?
The one's -in- Texas? Wow, you whine about a State emptying out and
intrastate activities are your best evidence? Grow up.
Baxter
2005-09-23 03:07:19 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Rita may empty out another state.
Which state is that Leroy? Certainly not the Great State of Texas where
the local and sate plans are providing a timely and orderly evacuation
of their highly mobil population to places largely in Texas. The
millions affected are a drop in the states population bucket. Your lack
of demographic data is no cause for wild claims.
BTW - how about those 100-mile traffic jams?
The one's -in- Texas? Wow, you whine about a State emptying out and
intrastate activities are your best evidence?
First they take people out of the city and put them on the freeways, then
Rita comes and blows away or drowns anything sitting on the freeways.
Post by Robert Cote
Grow up.
take your own advice.
Clark Morris
2005-09-23 13:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
Which state is that Leroy? Certainly not the Great State of Texas where
the local and sate plans are providing a timely and orderly evacuation
of their highly mobil population to places largely in Texas. The
millions affected are a drop in the states population bucket. Your lack
of demographic data is no cause for wild claims.
Given the very long traffic jams and reports of motorists running out
of gas in the traffic jams, I would wait until Saturday or Sunday to
measure success. The problem is greater in some senses than the
evacuation of New Orleans since a larger population is involved and I
don't know how many different routes are available.

I noted that they allowed evacuees to take their pets in the Galveston
evacuation if they were using the buses so at least one lesson was
learned. I also note that the average vehicle occupancy is probably
between 3 and 4 given that families evacuate as a unit and that
average excludes buses. Since the public transportation available is
far less than that in East Coast cities, public transportation can not
play as large a role. Rita and Katrina should be wake up calls to all
major concentrations of population because many coastal areas are
vulnerable.
Robert Cote
2005-09-23 14:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clark Morris
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
I think I said it already but I remember the mid 1960s in Venice, FL my
dad explaining that all the empty land was empty for a reason. Today
that same land is entirely developed. Some because building techniques
have improved but most because memory fades.
Rita may empty out another state.
Which state is that Leroy? Certainly not the Great State of Texas where
the local and sate plans are providing a timely and orderly evacuation
of their highly mobil population to places largely in Texas. The
millions affected are a drop in the states population bucket. Your lack
of demographic data is no cause for wild claims.
Given the very long traffic jams and reports of motorists running out
of gas in the traffic jams, I would wait until Saturday or Sunday to
measure success. The problem is greater in some senses than the
evacuation of New Orleans since a larger population is involved and I
don't know how many different routes are available.
Don't let "not perfect" get in the way of what is a timely and orderly
evacuation. I feel safe in predicting the process will remain orderly
as opposed to what we saw with the New Orleans uncooperative entitlement
class as I call them or the blacks and crackers as others call them.
Post by Clark Morris
I noted that they allowed evacuees to take their pets in the Galveston
evacuation if they were using the buses so at least one lesson was
learned.
The lesson is to have a plan and follow the plan. New Orleans had a
plan to use buses but did not. I guess the real lesson is to not elect
ineffectual leadership.
Post by Clark Morris
I also note that the average vehicle occupancy is probably
between 3 and 4 given that families evacuate as a unit and that
average excludes buses.
I'd bet a lot lower as many are likely to be evacuating their autos as
well. 17.8% of households have no vehicle, 22.3% in poverty yet the
city is entirely evacuated.
Post by Clark Morris
Since the public transportation available is
far less than that in East Coast cities, public transportation can not
play as large a role.
http://www.ntdprogram.com/NTD/Profiles.nsf/2003+All/6015/$File/6015.pdf

1.9 million passenger miles for a city of 60,000 isn't far less than
East Coast cities.
Post by Clark Morris
Rita and Katrina should be wake up calls to all
major concentrations of population because many coastal areas are
vulnerable.
When Los Angeles gets a large earthquake we'll see the folly of large
concentrations of people as well but transit advocates deny these
realities and constantly push for denser and larger conurbations.
Mark
2005-09-23 20:21:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Clark Morris
Since the public transportation available is
far less than that in East Coast cities, public transportation can not
play as large a role.
http://www.ntdprogram.com/NTD/Profiles.nsf/2003+All/6015/$File/6015.pdf
1.9 million passenger miles for a city of 60,000 isn't far less than
East Coast cities.
I couldn't find any linked trip statistics in your URL. Passenger miles is a
poor indicator because it values longer trips over shorter trips.

Mark
Robert Cote
2005-09-23 21:24:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Clark Morris
Since the public transportation available is
far less than that in East Coast cities, public transportation can not
play as large a role.
http://www.ntdprogram.com/NTD/Profiles.nsf/2003+All/6015/$File/6015.pdf
1.9 million passenger miles for a city of 60,000 isn't far less than
East Coast cities.
I couldn't find any linked trip statistics in your URL.
Agencies don't report linked trips. Partly because the NTD Program
discovered that there was too much opportunity to cheat and surprise
they did cheat. Unlinked passenger trips aka boardings were considered
a safer measure but surprise the transit agencies discovered how to
cheat there as well. So much cheating that 40 years ago the average
linked trip was 1.2 unlinked trips and today is 1.4 and higher. The
result on the ground is longer trips, slower speeds, more costs,
multi-seat trips and such. Why bother? Because higher boardings makes
the practical slide in transit use look like less of a disaster.
Post by Mark
Passenger miles is a
poor indicator because it values longer trips over shorter trips.
That is precisely why in the case of Galveston it is such a good
measure. They have among the very shortest unlinked trips in the
nation.
Martin Edwards
2005-09-22 15:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Baxter wrote:

Just wait till one rips up the Mississippi valley. East St Louis toodle
-oo.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
Tiny Human Ferret
2005-09-22 16:33:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Edwards
Just wait till one rips up the Mississippi valley. East St Louis toodle
-oo.
You know, if $DEITY got mad and wanted to be very annoying, first a
hurricane at New Orleans, flood everyone out to Houston. Next, Flood
everyone out of Houston to points north. Next, significant flooding of
the Red River means everyone moving out of Oklahoma and Arkansas have to
head for St Louis. Now, with far too many people in eastern Missouri and
western Tennessee and Kentucky, one last hurricane... and at its peak,
the New Madrid Fault cuts loose again with five sustained days of
one-a-day Richter 8.1 quakes with, as seen in history, literally
hundreds of Richter 6.9 "aftershocks". Not only will every building and
bridge be down, but if as historically seen the Mississippi and Missouri
reverse their courses, it won't even be safe to take boats out into the
flood, not that anyone would even try it considering that nobody would
have any idea where the channels in the rivers had relocated.

--klaatu, there are reasons that archaelogists can't find much trace of
the once-flourishing Mound Builder civilization

PS, the subsequent volcanism along the eastern foothills of the
Appalachians should make for a cheery interaction with the 100-meter
tsunami generated by a collapse of the Canary Islands... migrate to
Canada, eh?
--
nam primi in omnibus proeliis oculi vincuntur.
Martin Edwards
2005-09-25 15:12:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Martin Edwards
Just wait till one rips up the Mississippi valley. East St Louis
toodle -oo.
You know, if $DEITY got mad and wanted to be very annoying, first a
hurricane at New Orleans, flood everyone out to Houston. Next, Flood
everyone out of Houston to points north. Next, significant flooding of
the Red River means everyone moving out of Oklahoma and Arkansas have to
head for St Louis. Now, with far too many people in eastern Missouri and
western Tennessee and Kentucky, one last hurricane... and at its peak,
the New Madrid Fault cuts loose again with five sustained days of
one-a-day Richter 8.1 quakes with, as seen in history, literally
hundreds of Richter 6.9 "aftershocks". Not only will every building and
bridge be down, but if as historically seen the Mississippi and Missouri
reverse their courses, it won't even be safe to take boats out into the
flood, not that anyone would even try it considering that nobody would
have any idea where the channels in the rivers had relocated.
--klaatu, there are reasons that archaelogists can't find much trace of
the once-flourishing Mound Builder civilization
PS, the subsequent volcanism along the eastern foothills of the
Appalachians should make for a cheery interaction with the 100-meter
tsunami generated by a collapse of the Canary Islands... migrate to
Canada, eh?
Shit, Tory government for ever.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx

www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
Robert Cote
2005-09-25 21:05:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Edwards
Post by Tiny Human Ferret
Post by Martin Edwards
Just wait till one rips up the Mississippi valley. East St Louis
toodle -oo.
You know, if $DEITY got mad and wanted to be very annoying, first a
hurricane at New Orleans, flood everyone out to Houston. Next, Flood
everyone out of Houston to points north. Next, significant flooding of
the Red River means everyone moving out of Oklahoma and Arkansas have to
head for St Louis. Now, with far too many people in eastern Missouri and
western Tennessee and Kentucky, one last hurricane... and at its peak,
the New Madrid Fault cuts loose again with five sustained days of
one-a-day Richter 8.1 quakes with, as seen in history, literally
hundreds of Richter 6.9 "aftershocks". Not only will every building and
bridge be down, but if as historically seen the Mississippi and Missouri
reverse their courses, it won't even be safe to take boats out into the
flood, not that anyone would even try it considering that nobody would
have any idea where the channels in the rivers had relocated.
--klaatu, there are reasons that archaelogists can't find much trace of
the once-flourishing Mound Builder civilization
PS, the subsequent volcanism along the eastern foothills of the
Appalachians should make for a cheery interaction with the 100-meter
tsunami generated by a collapse of the Canary Islands... migrate to
Canada, eh?
Shit, Tory government for ever.
Why the comma?

Baxter
2005-09-22 19:34:01 UTC
Permalink
I'm waiting for the Cat-5 that hits D.C.
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Post by Martin Edwards
Just wait till one rips up the Mississippi valley. East St Louis toodle
-oo.
--
You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause - Chico Marx
www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/1955
Robinsons
2005-09-24 04:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
I wonder where all that $200 billion is going if FEMA limits each
homeowner to just $26,000?
Can you imagine paying WTC families $2.3 million and Katrina families
$26k? $200b is $700 each man woman and child from the "rest of us" to
the "victims." Luckily the diaspora has served to break the cycle of
dependence and a great many are not going back to their old lives.
Haven't you heard the stories of people falling in love with Houston
after only two weeks? Someone I respect (a retired Soc Prof) used to
call this Wrecking Ball Therapy for the dysfunctional OPACs (Obsolete
Pre-Automotive Cities). Cruel and disruptive but necessary to break the
status quo of dependency. Can you imagine -any- of the people trapped
in the city -ever- deciding to remain car-free? No way, they're buying
Hummers and trailers with their disaster grants.
Post by George Conklin
Do you have any idea? What can you do with that
limited amount except pay someone to clean up the lot? Then each house
must be brought up to current code, which would be impossible even if
they have NOT been flooded.
Brian replies:

Fascinating. Which socialist agency invented the requirement that every
house in New Orleans be modernized from Napoleonic setbacks, lotlines,
and building code requirements to meet standards of building code for
conventional "modernized" suburbandevelopment?

Most of which got wiped out by the storm?

Sounds like authoritarian socialist social engineering to me.
Post by George Conklin
Post by George Conklin
Will every last homeowner have to declare bankruptcy and
let government bail out the banks over ruined homeowners?
The Federal Government eliminated personal bankruptcy effective next month.

No individual will have bankruptcy protection. (Congress declined to extend
the deadline.) Business owners, which have first crack at being allowed in,
i.e. before the citizens of NOLA, will also have the -only- access to
bankruptcy protection.

The bankruptcy act also doubles credit card minimums for individuals.
Post by George Conklin
Post by George Conklin
It sounds worse
every day. The SSS is scheduled to have its convention in NO in March, and
the Monteleone hotel says that it is in great shape and we must go there.
The SSS leadership says we must support NO and go. I wonder if the sewers
will be working by then. Amtrak? (I go by Amtrak usually).
Amtrak was unharmed, and I'm sure the city will bend over backwards to
ensure that no business owner is adversely affected in any way. They will
be made whole -- and more -- while the erstwhile residents suffer.

The Washington Post (Robert Cote agrees) suggested it was worth seeing
your whole family drwn before your eyes -- simply to move to a
"more livable" city such as Fayetteville, Ark. or Houston.
They said it was an acceptable trade-off.

I don't recall Earl Blumenauer talking like that about Portland.
Correct me if I'm wrong; I would not be surprised. It is the
exact same mentality.

The title of the Philadelphia Daily News article referenced in
the original message agrees. And planetizen.com tacitly endorsed it:

(Re: "Forced Migration May Ultimately Help The Poor")

Robert's message is that it is worth the deaths of so many to get
those people out of there -- permanently -- and replace them with
engineered "livable" communities geared to people who can -afford-
the inconvenience of living in such a place.

--Brian
Robinsons
2005-09-24 04:28:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Conklin
I wonder where all that $200 billion is going if FEMA limits each
homeowner to just $26,000?
Can you imagine paying WTC families $2.3 million and Katrina families
$26k? $200b is $700 each man woman and child from the "rest of us" to
the "victims." Luckily the diaspora has served to break the cycle of
dependence and a great many are not going back to their old lives.
Haven't you heard the stories of people falling in love with Houston
after only two weeks? Someone I respect (a retired Soc Prof) used to
call this Wrecking Ball Therapy for the dysfunctional OPACs (Obsolete
Pre-Automotive Cities). Cruel and disruptive but necessary to break the
status quo of dependency. Can you imagine -any- of the people trapped
in the city -ever- deciding to remain car-free? No way, they're buying
Hummers and trailers with their disaster grants.
Post by George Conklin
Do you have any idea? What can you do with that
limited amount except pay someone to clean up the lot? Then each house
must be brought up to current code, which would be impossible even if
they have NOT been flooded.
Brian replies:

Fascinating. Which socialist agency invented the requirement that every
house in New Orleans be modernized from Napoleonic setbacks, lotlines,
and building code requirements to meet standards of building code for
conventional "modernized" suburbandevelopment?

Most of which got wiped out by the storm?

Sounds like authoritarian socialist social engineering to me.
Post by George Conklin
Post by George Conklin
Will every last homeowner have to declare bankruptcy and
let government bail out the banks over ruined homeowners?
The Federal Government eliminated personal bankruptcy effective next month.

No individual will have bankruptcy protection. (Congress declined to extend
the deadline.) Business owners, which have first crack at being allowed in,
i.e. before the citizens of NOLA, will also have the -only- access to
bankruptcy protection.

The bankruptcy act also doubles credit card minimums for individuals.
Post by George Conklin
Post by George Conklin
It sounds worse
every day. The SSS is scheduled to have its convention in NO in March, and
the Monteleone hotel says that it is in great shape and we must go there.
The SSS leadership says we must support NO and go. I wonder if the sewers
will be working by then. Amtrak? (I go by Amtrak usually).
Amtrak was unharmed, and I'm sure the city will bend over backwards to
ensure that no business owner is adversely affected in any way. They will
be made whole -- and more -- while the erstwhile residents suffer.

The Washington Post (Robert Cote agrees) suggested it was worth seeing
your whole family drwn before your eyes -- simply to move to a
"more livable" city such as Fayetteville, Ark. or Houston.
They said it was an acceptable trade-off.

I don't recall Earl Blumenauer talking like that about Portland.
Correct me if I'm wrong; I would not be surprised. It is the
exact same mentality.

The title of the Philadelphia Daily News article referenced in
the original message agrees. And planetizen.com tacitly endorsed it:

(Re: "Forced Migration May Ultimately Help The Poor")

Robert Cote's message is that it is worth the deaths of so many to get
those people out of there -- permanently -- and replace them with
engineered "livable" communities geared to people who can -afford-
the inconvenience of living in such a place.

--Brian
Robert Cote
2005-09-25 14:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robinsons
Which socialist agency invented the requirement that every
house in New Orleans be modernized from Napoleonic setbacks, lotlines,
and building code requirements to meet standards of building code for
conventional "modernized" suburbandevelopment?
That would be the planning department.
Post by Robinsons
Most of which got wiped out by the storm?
The usual rule is you may rebuild within existing footprints up to a
certain percentage 50% or something. This is to prevent the "Santa
Monica Teardown" where the owner leaves a sink and electrical outlet
standing while turning a 1200 sq ft cottage into a 4800 sq ft manse
under the guise of a remodel.
Post by Robinsons
Sounds like authoritarian socialist social engineering to me.
Most certainly when the effect is to change the character of a
neighborhood. Proper planning provides for protection of surrounding
property as much as protecting individual rights. That may seem
socialist to some but is the only way to prevent externalities from
negatively impacting individual rights.

...
Post by Robinsons
The Washington Post (Robert Cote agrees) suggested it was worth seeing
your whole family drwn before your eyes -- simply to move to a
"more livable" city such as Fayetteville, Ark. or Houston.
They said it was an acceptable trade-off.
Sweet. You need to go back and reread the causality written into the
statements you are misinterpreting. This isn't about allowing or
approving of the situation, it is about facing the reality of now and
making the best of a bad situation going forward.
Post by Robinsons
I don't recall Earl Blumenauer talking like that about Portland.
Correct me if I'm wrong; I would not be surprised. It is the
exact same mentality.
The title of the Philadelphia Daily News article referenced in
(Re: "Forced Migration May Ultimately Help The Poor")
Robert Cote's message is that it is worth the deaths of so many to get
those people out of there -- permanently -- and replace them with
engineered "livable" communities geared to people who can -afford-
the inconvenience of living in such a place.
I again suggest you reread with special attention to my comments
referring to future changes to -prevent- reoccurrance of both the
previous squallor and disaster exposure.
Baxter
2005-09-18 23:13:15 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Robert Cote
As I predicted the VULTURs (Very Urban Land Transformation Urbanist
Revolutionaries) are busy marking their territory and squabbling over
the corpse.
Interesting! So now Halliburton, Blackwater and virtually all the Bush
cronies are now "Very Urban Land Transformation Urbanist Revolutionaries".
Interesting indeed.
Robert Cote
2005-09-20 16:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
As I predicted the VULTURs (Very Urban Land Transformation Urbanist
Revolutionaries) are busy marking their territory and squabbling over
the corpse.
Interesting! So now Halliburton, Blackwater and virtually all the Bush
cronies are now "Very Urban Land Transformation Urbanist Revolutionaries".
Interesting indeed.
Haliburton, et al will be there as well but I was referring to the
SmUGLERs.
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