Update on Maryland plan for "Bi-County Transitway"

[wrob]

Brian: If we had had our druthers, would we really have built "surface"
Metrorail through Takoma Park, or would we have put the entire system through
Takoma Park underground? I expect that part of the situation for building a
"surface" Metrorail in Takoma Park was engineering, that the right of way also
had to accomodate heavy freight trains that Conrail probably didn't want to
put underground for safety reasons. Remember the freight train tunnel fire in
Baltimore some years ago that took a week to put out? That is why you don't
want to put freight trains underground.
Note that Virginia announced today a "half a loaf" solution to getting rail
to Dulles Airport. They are proposing building out to Wiele Avenue now, and
someday maybe they will get the money to build the rest of the rail line. I
wonder who is going to design it?

Only 4 stations in Tysons Corner and none at Wolf Trap is -less- than half a loaf
(remember, Tysons Corner is larger than the old L'Enfant City...and the line goes
right through Wolf Trap's campus.) At least it's better than the 3-station plan,
dead-ending at the Route 7-Dulles interchange!

More to the point, who, indeed, will oversee construction of the Dulles line?
Is VA proposing to include the added cost of supporting the 9/10 of WMATA's
engineering costs that Montgomery County will no longer be paying for?

-Brian

P.S. What's the timeline on this? In the Post?
If they drag it out for 15 years it'll cost
more than if they built the entire line in 5.

[John R Cambron]

Post by wrob

Brian: If we had had our druthers, would we really have built "surface"
Metrorail through Takoma Park, or would we have put the entire system through
Takoma Park underground? I expect that part of the situation for building a
"surface" Metrorail in Takoma Park was engineering, that the right of way also
had to accomodate heavy freight trains that Conrail probably didn't want to
put underground for safety reasons. Remember the freight train tunnel fire in
Baltimore some years ago that took a week to put out? That is why you don't
want to put freight trains underground.
Note that Virginia announced today a "half a loaf" solution to getting rail
to Dulles Airport. They are proposing building out to Wiele Avenue now, and
someday maybe they will get the money to build the rest of the rail line. I
wonder who is going to design it?

Only 4 stations in Tysons Corner and none at Wolf Trap is -less- than half a loaf
(remember, Tysons Corner is larger than the old L'Enfant City...and the line goes
right through Wolf Trap's campus.) At least it's better than the 3-station plan,
dead-ending at the Route 7-Dulles interchange!

I think I told you. Information in the DEIS of the Dulles Corridor
Transit project shows provisions built in to allow the future
construction of a station at Wolf Trap.

Post by wrob
More to the point, who, indeed, will oversee construction of the Dulles line?
Is VA proposing to include the added cost of supporting the 9/10 of WMATA's
engineering costs that Montgomery County will no longer be paying for?

Like the final segment of the Green Line F route WMATA will award the
contracts as design build based on WMATA Specification. A small number
of WMATA staff engineers will oversee the execution of the contracts.

The execution of this project in this manner saved enough money to
pay for the Branch Avenue Yard (F99).

Post by wrob
P.S. What's the timeline on this? In the Post?
If they drag it out for 15 years it'll cost
more than if they built the entire line in 5.

WTOP reported today 9 years to Wiele Avenue. 15 years to Ashburn.

[wrob]

I realize there's provision for a future Wolf Trap station but if it's
not built now, it never will. The disruption to an operating line plus
the percieved lack of users (all those rich people living in Great Falls
must NEVER use Metro) would make it impossible to ever build post opening.

Post by John R Cambron
Like the final segment of the Green Line F route WMATA will award the
contracts as design build based on WMATA Specification. A small number
of WMATA staff engineers will oversee the execution of the contracts.

This is an extremely stupid and corrupt way of doing business, especially
in a county crawling with Beltway Bandits such as Fairfax County. John,
it's my turn to chide you for saying this. I sent you the article.

You of all people should be fully aware that EVERYONE in WMATA other than
Chris Zimmerman (the man who scrapped WMATA's subway plans) considers
this approach to be an absolute nightmare scenario. It is NOT SOP for
WMATA. Read the article, man!!!

Post by John R Cambron
The execution of this project in this manner saved enough money to
pay for the Branch Avenue Yard (F99).

That was then. This is now -- years of inflation and recession later.

Just look at other recent design-build rail projects. There have been
absolute disasters. It is a fad, and a Republican fad at that. Sure,
lets let for-profit contractors determine how to engineer the line so
that they make as little money as possible on the project! Let's scrap
all our engineering institutional memory and leave you as one of the
few people left with any knowledge about stuff like whether we can
introduce 8-car trains or tie two lines together!

Are you sincerely telling me you have no problem with firing 9/10
of WMATA's engineers, leaving them absolutely powerless to initiate
subway building projects. You WILL NOT be able to negotiate ANY new
subway line with a private contractor for less than $billions extra,
and they will not initiate the discussion so WMATA will be powerless
to plan new subway lines, lacking the expertise to estimate their
development cost.

Post by John R Cambron

Post by wrob
P.S. What's the timeline on this? In the Post?
If they drag it out for 15 years it'll cost
more than if they built the entire line in 5.

WTOP reported today 9 years to Wiele Avenue. 15 years to Ashburn.

Why 9 years, pray tell? For these glorious contractors you speak
of who are capable of building a 10-story office building with a
4-story garage in 3. Sorry. This proves my point.

I think it's absolutely pathetic that the folks on these
newsgroups have no problem scrapping WMATA's engineering
division and relying on design-build conglomerates to
estimate and engineer the cost of future lines. WMATA
truly has no friends in Washington, as the article stated.

Perhaps all the planning people assume that the tourists
are the only persons riding it.

-BER

[John R Cambron]

Post by wrob
I realize there's provision for a future Wolf Trap station but if it's
not built now, it never will. The disruption to an operating line plus
the percieved lack of users (all those rich people living in Great Falls
must NEVER use Metro) would make it impossible to ever build post opening.

Post by John R Cambron
Like the final segment of the Green Line F route WMATA will award the
contracts as design build based on WMATA Specification. A small number
of WMATA staff engineers will oversee the execution of the contracts.

This is an extremely stupid and corrupt way of doing business, especially
in a county crawling with Beltway Bandits such as Fairfax County. John,
it's my turn to chide you for saying this. I sent you the article.
You of all people should be fully aware that EVERYONE in WMATA other than
Chris Zimmerman (the man who scrapped WMATA's subway plans) considers
this approach to be an absolute nightmare scenario. It is NOT SOP for
WMATA. Read the article, man!!!

Post by John R Cambron
The execution of this project in this manner saved enough money to
pay for the Branch Avenue Yard (F99).

So what your are telling me the $60+ million that was saved on
building the F Route Green line and used to build the Branch
Avenue Yard (F99) was corrupt way of doing business.

Post by wrob
That was then. This is now -- years of inflation and recession later.
Just look at other recent design-build rail projects. There have been
absolute disasters. It is a fad, and a Republican fad at that. Sure,
lets let for-profit contractors determine how to engineer the line so
that they make as little money as possible on the project! Let's scrap
all our engineering institutional memory and leave you as one of the
few people left with any knowledge about stuff like whether we can
introduce 8-car trains or tie two lines together!

WMATA pioneered design build in transit projects in the early 1990s.
The polices used by WMATA are very different then polices used by
other agencies.

Operating 8 car trains is not that big a deal. Most of the problems
involved are related to hardware that was not maintained to operate
8 car trains because WMATA was not operating 8 car trains. Pull the
documents off the shelf bring the hardware up to spec. You don't
need a bunch of construction engineers to do this.

This is not rocket science.

Post by wrob
Are you sincerely telling me you have no problem with firing 9/10
of WMATA's engineers, leaving them absolutely powerless to initiate
subway building projects. You WILL NOT be able to negotiate ANY new
subway line with a private contractor for less than $billions extra,
and they will not initiate the discussion so WMATA will be powerless
to plan new subway lines, lacking the expertise to estimate their
development cost.

Post by John R Cambron

Post by wrob
P.S. What's the timeline on this? In the Post?
If they drag it out for 15 years it'll cost
more than if they built the entire line in 5.

WTOP reported today 9 years to Wiele Avenue. 15 years to Ashburn.

Why 9 years, pray tell?

The federal government in not going to appropriate all of the
matching funds for this project in one lump sum. It will be
done over years.

Post by wrob
For these glorious contractors you speak
of who are capable of building a 10-story office building with a
4-story garage in 3. Sorry. This proves my point.

Commercial development projects are usually "totally funded"
before the first shovel dirt is removed from the ground. The
projects are executed faster because time is money, a concept
that doesn't exist in government.

To give you an example. Jack Kent Cook built the stadium
now known as Fedex Field in half the time and at less cost
then the stadium built in Baltimore for the Ravens. These
2 stadium were built almost at the same time.

Post by wrob
I think it's absolutely pathetic that the folks on these
newsgroups have no problem scrapping WMATA's engineering
division and relying on design-build conglomerates to
estimate and engineer the cost of future lines. WMATA
truly has no friends in Washington, as the article stated.

WMATA has used contracted engineering services sense it's
inception. During the 1980s and 1990s much of these services
was moved in house as the need was less. Today the need is
even less then it was in the 1980s and 1990s.

[Keith F. Lynch]

Post by wrob
I realize there's provision for a future Wolf Trap station but if
it's not built now, it never will. The disruption to an operating
line plus the percieved lack of users (all those rich people living
in Great Falls must NEVER use Metro) would make it impossible to
ever build post opening.

They're already building an infill station, albeit in a very stupid
location, i.e. between two stations that are already close to each
other. So I can't see why they couldn't do the same elsewhere.
Either at Wolftrap someday or wherever is currently the furthest
run between adjacent stations.