Discussion:
Metro to eliminate free bus transfers for farecard users
(too old to reply)
Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
2004-04-01 23:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Brian: I don't understand what this means. Is WMAtA eliminating rail to
bus transfers entirely?
Robert
Only for farecard users, it seems. This is quite the reversal from
DC's (failed) effort to install farecard readers on buses -- now
that the bus revamp is complete, that effort is dead (Fairfax, home
of the SmarTrip card corporation and sundry other intelligence firms,
described farecards as an "obsolete technology" of interest only to
the less affluent and less frequent users -- who need to be "pushed"
into adopting, ahem, Smartrip).

The rest of the Metro board said that, while farecards cannot be phased out
like tokens (I possess an actual Metro token, BTW), they want to make them
as inconvenient as possible so "primarily tourists" will use them. Except
for parking and transfers to bus, of course. Never mind that most of
Metro's lower income riders use farecards.

This plan is part of an effort to move Metro more in the direction of a
"business" model, in which businesses track the "consumer's" every move.
That is how Metro described it when they first set out on this path;
tracking the customer's buying habits has always been a major intention.

I am not trying to suggest that the primary intention is tracking individual
citizens. That is merely a side benefit of interest only to crazy
people like John Poindexter. Who cares where their interests may lie!

--BER
Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
2004-04-02 01:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Robert sez:


Brian: It is interesting to me that Metro [now apparently part of the
Office of Information Awareness] isn't interesting in tracking the
movements of "tourists." Do they really think that prospective terrorists
and the other suspicious individuals that Metro is constantly asking us to
identify for them are going to spend $5.00 on a SmartTrip Card? I suppose
that Metro can sell all of the collected information on my commuting
habits to corporate marketing types in order to balance their budget ...
did you see the "Death Spiral" article in the Post today? Is Metro going
the way of SEPTA? Stay tuned ...

Robert


On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:18:29 -0500, Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
Brian: I don't understand what this means. Is WMAtA eliminating rail
to
bus transfers entirely?
Robert
Only for farecard users, it seems. This is quite the reversal from
DC's (failed) effort to install farecard readers on buses -- now
that the bus revamp is complete, that effort is dead (Fairfax, home
of the SmarTrip card corporation and sundry other intelligence firms,
described farecards as an "obsolete technology" of interest only to
the less affluent and less frequent users -- who need to be "pushed"
into adopting, ahem, Smartrip).
The rest of the Metro board said that, while farecards cannot be phased
out
like tokens (I possess an actual Metro token, BTW), they want to make
them
as inconvenient as possible so "primarily tourists" will use them.
Except
for parking and transfers to bus, of course. Never mind that most of
Metro's lower income riders use farecards.
This plan is part of an effort to move Metro more in the direction of a
"business" model, in which businesses track the "consumer's" every move.
That is how Metro described it when they first set out on this path;
tracking the customer's buying habits has always been a major intention.
I am not trying to suggest that the primary intention is tracking
individual
citizens. That is merely a side benefit of interest only to crazy
people like John Poindexter. Who cares where their interests may lie!
--BERR
Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
2004-04-03 08:05:41 UTC
Permalink
Robert -- when I said Tom was missing my point, I wasn't
referring to your message. I agree with what you say here.

BTW, in reply to Dan, there's an interesting article in the Post on
the Blackwater corp and the idealistic young kid who joined them
hoping to make a difference.

It's in Friday's paper -- same issue as the Metro "death spiral"
I've been worrying about for months.

(note: Metrorail opponent Chris Zimmerman is quoted, one of the
trolley-N-bus "transit advocates" who voted, as a member of the
MWCOG alongside then-chair Kathy Porter -- not to budget ANY money
for railcars in the Metropolitan Washington long-term (2025)
capital plan, which is an official funding request document,
and continues to say "the money just isn't there" even as he pushes
to "double the DC area's transit ridership" by, you guessed it, 2025 --

-- in an MWCOG vote only a few months earlier, as well as local govt
resolutions -- presumably C.Z. hopes to alleviate crowding by taking
people OFF Metro and putting them on trolley and BRT lines. In fact,
he & D. head John Porcari said as much when the K St. Busway and
(political nonstarter) M Street Trolley were first proposed as an
alternative to a much-needed (and Georgetown-backed) M Street subway.

So now we're trying to take people OFF the trains by widening roads
and removing trees for surface trolleys, rather than building railcars.
Make sense?

This takes us back in time to 1995, when Parris Glendening et al.
predicted that Metro would become a white elephant for lack of riders,
because it served so little of the DC area...

The fact that the rail cars are needed to meet CURRENT ridership
projections, never mind doubling them, escapes his notice,
as I mentioned back when this vote took place, a year or two ago!
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
Brian: It is interesting to me that Metro [now apparently part of the
Office of Information Awareness] isn't interesting in tracking the
movements of "tourists." Do they really think that prospective terrorists
and the other suspicious individuals that Metro is constantly asking us to
identify for them are going to spend $5.00 on a SmartTrip Card? I suppose
that Metro can sell all of the collected information on my commuting
habits to corporate marketing types in order to balance their budget ...
did you see the "Death Spiral" article in the Post today? Is Metro going
the way of SEPTA? Stay tuned ...
Robert
On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:18:29 -0500, Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
Brian: I don't understand what this means. Is WMAtA eliminating rail to
bus transfers entirely?
Robert
Only for farecard users, it seems. This is quite the reversal from
DC's (failed) effort to install farecard readers on buses -- now
that the bus revamp is complete, that effort is dead (Fairfax, home
of the SmarTrip card corporation and sundry other intelligence firms,
described farecards as an "obsolete technology" of interest only to
the less affluent and less frequent users -- who need to be "pushed"
into adopting, ahem, Smartrip).
I am not trying to suggest that the primary intention is tracking individual
citizens. That is merely a side benefit of interest only to crazy
people like John Poindexter. Who cares where their interests may lie!
--BERĂ½
Keith F. Lynch
2004-04-03 21:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
The rest of the Metro board said that, while farecards cannot be
phased out like tokens (I possess an actual Metro token, BTW), ...
When did Metro use tokens? A March 1977 brochure makes no mention of
them. That was less than a year after the system opened.
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
I am not trying to suggest that the primary intention is tracking
individual citizens. That is merely a side benefit of interest
only to crazy people like John Poindexter. Who cares where their
interests may lie!
My understanding is that there's nothing to connect any particular
SmarTrip card to any particular person, unless they choose to register
it. Or unless they buy it with a check or credit card. So SmarTrip
cards don't really allow any tracking that farecards don't.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
David Lesher
2004-04-04 01:06:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
My understanding is that there's nothing to connect any particular
SmarTrip card to any particular person, unless they choose to register
it. Or unless they buy it with a check or credit card. So SmarTrip
cards don't really allow any tracking that farecards don't.
They do when you are stopped, frisked, and your card taken & dumped.
Or other similar situations.

That just can not happen with farecards.
--
A host is a host from coast to ***@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
John Mara
2004-04-04 04:15:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Lesher
They do when you are stopped, frisked, and your card taken & dumped.
Or other similar situations.
That just can not happen with farecards.
What information is on a regular fare card. Just the balance? The last few
trips?

John Mara
David Lesher
2004-04-04 23:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Mara
Post by David Lesher
They do when you are stopped, frisked, and your card taken & dumped.
Or other similar situations.
That just can not happen with farecards.
What information is on a regular fare card. Just the balance? The last few
trips?
It's my understanding it's the previous trip, if you are outside the system.
Once you use the card to enter again, that data is replaced with your current
entrance place/time.
--
A host is a host from coast to ***@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Keith F. Lynch
2004-04-05 03:31:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Mara
What information is on a regular fare card. Just the balance? The
last few trips?
It's my understanding it's the previous trip, if you are outside the
system. Once you use the card to enter again, that data is replaced
with your current entrance place/time.
I have long assumed that whatever else is recorded on each each
farecard, that it contains a unique serial number, and that Metro's
central computers keep track of the history of each card. Not to play
big brother, but because it's the only way to prevent anyone with a
magstripe writer from adding value to their farecard.

Even if the data on the farecard is encrypted, someone could simply
replicate whatever magnetic pattern is on a high value farecard.

But then, this assumes that Metro is competent, and that they care
about not losing money to cheats. After the recent revelations about
how parking lot attendants stole millions with negligible effort for
years, I'm no longer sure of either.

If you're right, I wonder how much money they have lost over the years
due to dishonest riders with magstripe writers.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
John R Cambron
2004-04-04 15:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
The rest of the Metro board said that, while farecards cannot be
phased out like tokens (I possess an actual Metro token, BTW), ...
When did Metro use tokens? A March 1977 brochure makes no mention of
them. That was less than a year after the system opened.
The first phase of metrorail used tokens and or cash exact
fares because the (AFC) Automatic Fare Collection system was
not yet ready for use as the contractor had not had the hardware
ready when the first segment of the system opened. Besides the
fare between all of the stations on the first segment were the
same at that time. When phase II opened on 07 01 1977 the AFC
system was put in service and tokens were no longer used on
metrorail.

Metrobus used tokens for many years after metrorail opened. I
used tokens on metrobus as late a the early 1980s, and according
to this press release dated 06 25 2003;
http://www.wmata.com/about/met_news/PressReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=105
WMATA still sells metrobus tokens. WMATA also still issued a
student fares token to DC school children.
Post by Keith F. Lynch
Post by Brian Robinson OR Carol Goter Robinson OR Bill Robinson
I am not trying to suggest that the primary intention is tracking
individual citizens. That is merely a side benefit of interest
only to crazy people like John Poindexter. Who cares where their
interests may lie!
My understanding is that there's nothing to connect any particular
SmarTrip card to any particular person, unless they choose to register
it. Or unless they buy it with a check or credit card. So SmarTrip
cards don't really allow any tracking that farecards don't.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
--
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Ever wanted one of these John R Cambron
http://205.130.220.18/~cambronj/wmata/ or >>>Hebron<<< MD USA
http://www.chesapeake.net/~cambronj/wmata/ ***@chesapeake.net
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