Discussion:
NOLA disaster -- I spoke too soon
(too old to reply)
Robinsons
2005-09-09 10:22:36 UTC
Permalink
...on the $45 buses.

The reality was much worse. (see article)

My unstated supposition about Gretna and why they didn't
evacuate anyone over the bridge (I've never been there,
so I wasn't about to make suppositions) confirmed. And
my stated supposition about pedestrians on the bridge.

Caveat: this is a partisan website, but the info is too
detailed to discount on that basis, I think.

No word on the identity of the Air Force Reserve pilot/
whistleblower. I must say her info, forwarding addresses
were fairly detailed. Anyone interested in going to media
could probably call her ex-CO and verify her identity.

I would not be surprised if my hometown mailing list has
yet to hear about the bystanders killed in the "shoot to
kill" update posted by Reuters this weekend.

Kind words about ordinary Texans.

Be sure and read the whole thing.

Oh yeah, and : "sheroes" - new word

------------- Original Article --------------

http://www.bushsamerica.com/index.php/2005/09/08/a_story_from_the_inside_new_orleans

Note: Bradshaw and Slonsky are paramedics from California that were
attending the EMS conference in New Orleans. Larry Bradshaw is the
chief shop steward, Paramedic Chapter, SEIU Local 790; and Lorrie
Beth Slonsky is steward, Paramedic Chapter, SEIU Local 790.

Two days after Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans, the Walgreen's store at the
corner of Royal and Iberville streets remained locked. The dairy display case was
clearly visible through the widows. It was now 48 hours without electricity, running
water, or plumbing. The milk, yogurt, and cheeses were beginning to spoil in the
90-degree heat. The owners and managers had locked up the food, water, pampers,
and prescriptions and fled the City. Outside Walgreen's windows, residents and
tourists grew increasingly thirsty and hungry.

The much-promised federal, state and local aid never materialized and the windows at
Walgreen's gave way to the looters. There was an alternative. The cops could have
broken one small window and distributed the nuts, fruit juices, and bottle water in an
organized and systematic manner. But they did not, Instead they spent hours playing
cat and mouse, temporarily chasing away the looters.

We were finally airlifted out of New Orleans two days ago and arrived home yesterday
(Saturday). We have yet to see any of the TV coverage or look at a newspaper. We are
willing to guess that there were no video images or front-page pictures of European or
affluent white tourists looting the Walgreen's in the French Quarter.

We also suspect the media will have been inundated with "hero" images of the
National Guard, the troops and the police struggling to help the "victims" of the
Hurricane. What you will not see, but what we witnessed, were the real heroes and
sheroes of the hurricane relief effort: the working class of New Orleans. The
maintenance workers who used a forklift to carry the sick and disabled. The engineers,
who rigged, nurtured and kept the generators running. The electricians who
improvised thick extension cords stretching over blocks to share the little electricity
we had in order to free cars stuck on rooftop parking lots. Nurses who took over for
mechanical ventilators and spent many hours on end manually forcing air into the
lungs of unconscious patients to keep them alive. Doormen who rescued folks stuck
in elevators. Refinery workers who broke into boat yards, "stealing" boats to rescue
their neighbors clinging to their roofs in floodwaters. Mechanics who helped hot-wire
any car that could be found to ferry people out of the City. And the food service
workers who scoured the commercial kitchens improvising communal meals for
hundreds of those stranded.

Most of these workers had lost their homes, and had not heard from members of their
families, yet they stayed and provided the only infrastructure for the 20% of New
Orleans that was not under water.

On Day 2, there were approximately 500 of us left in the hotels in the French Quarter.
We were a mix of foreign tourists, conference attendees like ourselves, and locals who
had checked into hotels for safety and shelter from Katrina. Some of us had cell phone
contact with family and friends outside of New Orleans. We were repeatedly told that
all sorts of resources including the National Guard and scores of buses were pouring in
to the City. The buses and the other resources must have been invisible because none
of us had seen them.

We decided we had to save ourselves. So we pooled our money and came up with
$25,000 to have ten buses come and take us out of the City. Those who did not have
the requisite $45.00 for a ticket were subsidized by those who did have extra money.
We waited for 48 hours for the buses, spending the last 12 hours standing outside,
sharing the limited water, food, and clothes we had. We created a priority boarding
area for the sick, elderly and newborn babies. We waited late into the night for the
"imminent" arrival of the buses. The buses never arrived. We later learned that the
minute the arrived to the City limits, they were commandeered by the military.

By day 4, our hotels had run out of fuel and water. Sanitation was dangerously
abysmal. As the desperation and despair increased, street crime as well as water levels
began to rise. The hotels turned us out and locked their doors, telling us that the
"officials" told us to report to the convention center to wait for more buses. As we
entered the center of the City, we finally encountered the National Guard. The Guards
told us we would not be allowed into the Superdome as the City's primary shelter had
descended into a humanitarian and health hellhole. The guards further told us that the
City's only other shelter, the Convention Center, was also descending into chaos and
squalor and that the police were not allowing anyone else in. Quite naturally, we asked,
"If we can't go to the only 2 shelters in the City, what was our alternative?"
The guards told us that that was our problem, and no they did not have extra water
to give to us. This would be the start of our numerous encounters with callous and
hostile "law enforcement".

We walked to the police command center at Harrah's on Canal Street and were told
the same thing, that we were on our own, and no they did not have water to give us.
We now numbered several hundred. We held a mass meeting to decide a course of
action. We agreed to camp outside the police command post. We would be plainly
visible to the media and would constitute a highly visible embarrassment to the City
officials. The police told us that we could not stay. Regardless, we began to settle in
and set up camp. In short order, the police commander came across the street to
address our group. He told us he had a solution: we should walk to the Pontchartrain
Expressway and cross the greater New Orleans Bridge where the police had buses
lined up to take us out of the City. The crowed cheered and began to move. We called
everyone back and explained to the commander that there had been lots of
misinformation and wrong information and was he sure that there were buses waiting
for us. The commander turned to the crowd and stated emphatically, "I swear to you
that the buses are there."

We organized ourselves and the 200 of us set off for the bridge with great excitement
and hope. As we marched pasted the convention center, many locals saw our determined
and optimistic group and asked where we were headed. We told them about the great news.
Families immediately grabbed their few belongings and quickly
our numbers doubled and then doubled again. Babies in strollers now joined us,
people using crutches, elderly clasping walkers and others people in wheelchairs.
We marched the 2-3 miles to the freeway and up the steep incline to the Bridge.
It now began to pour down rain, but it did not dampen our enthusiasm.

As we approached the bridge, armed Gretna sheriffs formed a line across the foot of
the bridge. Before we were close enough to speak, they began firing their weapons
over our heads. This sent the crowd fleeing in various directions. As the crowd
scattered and dissipated, a few of us inched forward and managed to engage some of
the sheriffs in conversation. We told them of our conversation with the police
commander and of the commander's assurances. The sheriffs informed us there were no
buses waiting. The commander had lied to us to get us to move.

We questioned why we couldn't cross the bridge anyway, especially as there was little
traffic on the 6-lane highway. They responded that the West Bank was not going to
become New Orleans and there would be no Superdomes in their City. These were
code words for if you are poor and black, you are not crossing the Mississippi River
and you were not getting out of New Orleans.

Our small group retreated back down Highway 90 to seek shelter from the rain under
an overpass. We debated our options and in the end decided to build an encampment
in the middle of the Ponchartrain Expressway on the center divide, between the
O'Keefe and Tchoupitoulas exits. We reasoned we would be visible to everyone, we
would have some security being on an elevated freeway and we could wait and watch
for the arrival of the yet to be seen buses.

All day long, we saw other families, individuals and groups make the same trip up the
incline in an attempt to cross the bridge, only to be turned away. Some chased away
with gunfire, others simply told no, others to be verbally berated and humiliated.
Thousands of New Orleaners were prevented and prohibited from self-evacuating the
City on foot. Meanwhile, the only two City shelters sank further into squalor and
disrepair. The only way across the bridge was by vehicle. We saw workers stealing
trucks, buses, moving vans, semi-trucks and any car that could be hotwired. All were
packed with people trying to escape the misery New Orleans had become.

Our little encampment began to blossom. Someone stole a water delivery truck and
brought it up to us. Let's hear it for looting! A mile or so down the freeway, an army
truck lost a couple of pallets of C-rations on a tight turn. We ferried the food back to
our camp in shopping carts. Now secure with the two necessities, food and water;
cooperation, community, and creativity flowered. We organized a clean up and hung
garbage bags from the rebar poles. We made beds from wood pallets and cardboard.
We designated a storm drain as the bathroom and the kids built an elaborate enclosure
for privacy out of plastic, broken umbrellas, and other scraps. We even organized a
food recycling system where individuals could swap out parts of C-rations
(applesauce for babies and candies for kids!).

This was a process we saw repeatedly in the aftermath of Katrina. When individuals
had to fight to find food or water, it meant looking out for yourself only. You had to
do whatever it took to find water for your kids or food for your parents. When these
basic needs were met, people began to look out for each other, working together and
constructing a community. If the relief organizations had saturated the City with food
and water in the first 2 or 3 days, the desperation, the frustration and the ugliness
would not have set in.

Flush with the necessities, we offered food and water to passing families and
individuals. Many decided to stay and join us. Our encampment grew to 80 or 90 people.

From a woman with a battery-powered radio we learned that the media was talking about us.
Up in full view on the freeway, every relief and news organizations saw us on their way
into the City. Officials were being asked what they were going to do about all those
families living up on the freeway? The officials responded they were going to take care
of us. Some of us got a sinking feeling. "Taking care of us" had an ominous tone to it.

Unfortunately, our sinking feeling (along with the sinking City) was correct. Just as
dusk set in, a Gretna Sheriff showed up, jumped out of his patrol vehicle, aimed his gun
at our faces, screaming, "Get off the fucking freeway". A helicopter arrived and used
the wind from its blades to blow away our flimsy structures. As we retreated, the
sheriff loaded up his truck with our food and water.

Once again, at gunpoint, we were forced off the freeway. All the law enforcement
agencies appeared threatened when we congregated or congealed into groups of 20
or more. In every congregation of "victims" they saw "mob" or "riot". We felt safety
in numbers. Our "we must stay together" was impossible because the agencies would
force us into small atomized groups.

In the pandemonium of having our camp raided and destroyed, we scattered once again.
Reduced to a small group of 8 people, in the dark, we sought refuge in an abandoned
school bus, under the freeway on Cilo Street. We were hiding from possible criminal
elements but equally and definitely, we were hiding from the police
and sheriffs with their martial law, curfew and shoot-to-kill policies.

The next days, our group of 8 walked most of the day, made contact with New Orleans
Fire Department and were eventually airlifted out by an urban search and rescue team.
We were dropped off near the airport and managed to catch a ride with the National
Guard. The two young guardsmen apologized for the limited response of the Louisiana
guards. They explained that a large section of their unit was in Iraq and that meant
they were shorthanded and were unable to complete all the tasks they were assigned.

We arrived at the airport on the day a massive airlift had begun. The airport had
become another Superdome. We 8 were caught in a press of humanity as flights were
delayed for several hours while George Bush landed briefly at the airport for a
photo op. After being evacuated on a coast guard cargo plane, we arrived in
San Antonio, Texas.

There the humiliation and dehumanization of the official relief effort continued.
We were placed on buses and driven to a large field where we were forced to sit for
hours and hours. Some of the buses did not have air-conditioners. In the dark,
hundreds of us were forced to hare two filthy overflowing porta-potties. Those who
managed to make it out with any possessions (often a few belongings in tattered
plastic bags) we were subjected to two different dog-sniffing searches.

Most of us had not eaten all day because our C-rations had been confiscated at the
airport because the rations set off the metal detectors. Yet, no food had been provided
to the men, women, children, elderly, disabled as they sat for hours waiting to be
"medically screened" to make sure we were not carrying any communicable diseases.

This official treatment was in sharp contrast to the warm, heart-felt reception
given to us by the ordinary Texans. We saw one airline worker give her shoes to
someone who was barefoot. Strangers on the street offered us money and toiletries
with words of welcome. Throughout, the official relief effort was callous, inept,
and racist. There was more suffering than need be.

Lives were lost that did not need to be lost.
Robinsons
2005-09-10 21:51:26 UTC
Permalink
No response eh? Read the article.

Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Robert Cote
2005-09-12 18:01:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any individual
cost to maximize societal good.
Robinsons
2005-09-13 00:43:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any individual
cost to maximize societal good.
So the societal good of Gretna was maintained by condemning people
in Orleans to starvation and death. Remarkable.

And to Maintain Order it is possible to remove people's inalienable
right (under common law) to peaceably assemble on the public right of way.

Without rights there can be no Order. He who would deprive
someone's life and liberty for a little temporary security
deserves neither.

Oh, and...

Did I mention this?
Post by Robert Cote
The following is an account from members of a church
that had brought in food for residents of one of the FEMA camps
that are being set up in rural areas.
------------

We then started lugging in our food products. The foods I had purchased
were mainly snacks, but my mother - God bless her soul - had gone all out
with fresh vegetables, fruits, canned goods, breakfast cereals, rice, and
pancake fixings. That's when we got the next message:
They will not be able to use the kitchen.

"Excuse me? I asked incredulously.

FEMA will not allow any of the kitchen facilities in any of the cabins
to be used by the occupants due to fire hazards. FEMA will deliver meals
to the cabins. The refugees will be given two meals per day by FEMA.

They will not be able to cook. In fact, the "host" goes on to explain,
some churches had already enquired about whether they could come in on
weekends and fix meals for the people staying in their cabin. FEMA won't
allow it because there could be a situation where one cabin gets steaks
and another gets hot dogs - and...

it could cause a riot."

It gets worse.

He then precedes to tell us that some churches had already enquired into
whether they could send a van or bus on Sundays to pick up any occupants
of their cabins who might be interested in attending church.
FEMA will
not allow this.

The occupants of the camp cannot leave the camp for any reason.
If they leave the camp they may never return. They will be issued
FEMA identification cards and "a sum of money" and they will remain
within the camp for the next 5 months.

My son looks at me and mumbles "Welcome to Krakow."

My mother then asked if the churches would be allowed to come
to their cabin and conduct services if the occupants wanted
to attend. The response was

"No ma'am. You don't understand. Your church no longer owns this building.
This building is now owned by FEMA and the Oklahoma Highway Patrol. They
have it for the next 5 months." This scares my mother who asks "Do you mean
they have leased it?" The man replies, "Yes, ma'am...lock, stock and barrel.
They have taken over everything that pertains to this facility for the next
5 months."

We then lug all food products requiring cooking back to the car.
We start unloading our snacks. Mom appeared to have cornered the market
in five counties on pop-tarts and apparently that was an acceptable snack
so the guy started shoving them under the counter. He said these would be
good to tied people over in between their two meals a day.

But he tells my mother she must take all the breakfast cereal back.
My mother protests that cereal requires no cooking.
"There will be no milk, ma'am."

My mother points to the huge industrial double-wide refrigerator
the church had just purchased in the past year. "Ma'am, you don't
understand...

It could cause a riot."

He then points to the vegetables and fruit. "You'll have to take that
back as well. It looks like you've got about 10 apples there.

I'm about to bring in 40 men. What would we do then?"

My mother, in her sweet, soft voice says, "Quarter them?"

"No ma'am. FEMA said no...

It could cause a riot. You don't understand
the type of people that are about to come here...."

I turn and walk out of the room...lugging all the healthy stuff
back to the car. My son later tells me the man went on to say
"We've already been told of teenage girls delivering fetuses
on buses." My son steps toward him and says "That's because they've
almost been starved to death, haven't had a decent place to get a
good night's sleep, and their bodies can't keep a baby alive. I'm
not sure that's any evidence some one should be using to show
these are 'bad people'."
Robert Cote
2005-09-13 02:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robinsons
Post by Robert Cote
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any individual
cost to maximize societal good.
So the societal good of Gretna was maintained by condemning people
in Orleans to starvation and death. Remarkable.
Hardly remarkable at all. This has been going on for a while. If
several millenia is a while at least.
Post by Robinsons
And to Maintain Order it is possible to remove people's inalienable
right (under common law) to peaceably assemble on the public right of way.
Which is it? Unalienable rights are above the law or are you talking
common law rights? You might also brush up on martial law and the laws
covering peaceable assembly.
Post by Robinsons
Without rights there can be no Order. He who would deprive
someone's life and liberty for a little temporary security
deserves neither.
That's about the worst bastardization of Franklin I've ever seen. For
shame.
Post by Robinsons
Oh, and...
Did I mention this?
Actually at great length, yes you have.
Robinsons
2005-09-13 02:46:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Without rights there can be no Order. He who would deprive
someone's life and liberty for a little temporary security
deserves neither.
That's about the worst bastardization of Franklin I've ever seen. For
shame.
Hardly. If I am not mistaken... Benjamin Franklin WAS a bastard.

That makes it an average bastardization, no more or less.

Technically, legally... ecumenically.

Unless of course you mean the worst bastardization COMMITTED by
Franklin. Records for that sort of thing are poor in those days.
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Oh, and...
Did I mention this?
Actually at great length, yes you have.
Robert Cote
2005-09-13 03:21:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robinsons
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Without rights there can be no Order. He who would deprive
someone's life and liberty for a little temporary security
deserves neither.
That's about the worst bastardization of Franklin I've ever seen. For
shame.
Hardly. If I am not mistaken... Benjamin Franklin WAS a bastard.
At least you know this much but he actually said:

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
- November 11, 1755.

There's a difference twixt your "deprive" and his "give up."
Post by Robinsons
That makes it an average bastardization, no more or less.
Hardly.
Post by Robinsons
Technically, legally... ecumenically.
Unless of course you mean the worst bastardization COMMITTED by
Franklin. Records for that sort of thing are poor in those days.
BFs exploits are extraordinarily well documented unlike all the "first
hand" accounts of N.O. atrocities you keep lifting off the socialist
internetwork.
Baxter
2005-09-13 15:04:41 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
And to Maintain Order it is possible to remove people's inalienable
right (under common law) to peaceably assemble on the public right of way.
Which is it? Unalienable rights are above the law or are you talking
common law rights? You might also brush up on martial law and the laws
covering peaceable assembly.
No Martial Law was declared. And these people were trying to comply with
the Governor's and Mayor's orders to evacuate the area.
Robinsons
2005-09-13 01:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any individual
cost to maximize societal good.
Here's another thing, Robert.

Gretna (Jefferson Parish) owns only a thin slice of the
Crescent City Bridge (the only bridge across the Mississippi.)

The bridge begins and ends in Orleans Parish (Algiers,
a section of New Orleans that was NOT underwater.

Gretna asked for state approval to take over the bridge
and block pedestrian traffic. Orleans Parish was not
consulted. They also checkpointed all traffic.

This is akin to DC police setting up a roadblock on the
Woodrow Wilson Bridge in the event of a nuclear disaster
in Northern Virginia to protect the residents of DC from
panicked, starving refugees.

Did I mention your Conservative solution to maximize social good
is to keep all refugees out of Jefferson Parish, INDEFINITELY?

What's so good about Jefferson that they can't act like Houston,
or any other responsible community affected by the disaster?

And house them as far from the Orleans metro area, and not allow
them to leave until they have demonstrated an ability to purchase
a house, get a job, etc. ELSEWHERE, but not in Orleans and Jefferson,
where they are not welcome?

(amongst numerous OTHER rural parishes, where they are also not welcome,
in Louisiana, one of the most racist states in the union?? My folks are
from Louisiana, Robert... and that's coming from someone who is fond of
the state. I know whereof I speak.)

Meanwhile, businesses are already hiring people FROM Jefferson
(white people) to assist corporate landowners (whose power never
went off) and contracting firms in the rebuilding effort.

To quote alt.hvac, the power is being turned on all over the place but
first the officials must ensure that "HOMEY DOESN'T HAVE THE STREETS."

To do that, of course, a mass forcible evacuation is ordered and folks
are told "you will never be allowed to return to your homes, they will
be bulldozed." Sound familiar?

In the middle ages, folks in Italy would burn down Jewish ghettoes
over fears of poisoned water.

They did similar things to black
ghettoes in the early 1900s. This is simply a return to form. As
the nation continues to grow more conservative we will return to
the traditional mode of race riot. The notion of blacks being
allowed to burn down their OWN homes in order to get a percieved
ticket out of the ghetto is so 1970s. It is no longer in white
interest to tolerate social disorder in the black population now
that their presence in urban areas in large quantities is no
longer acceptable. Any pretext will do to ship them into rural
areas, carefully isolated from the white population, and inculcate
exurban values into them, like obedience.

--Brian
Robert Cote
2005-09-13 02:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robinsons
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any individual
cost to maximize societal good.
Here's another thing, Robert.
There's always going to be another thing with you. You are not going to
be satisfied until the world works the way you want it to.
Post by Robinsons
Gretna (Jefferson Parish) owns only a thin slice of the
Crescent City Bridge (the only bridge across the Mississippi.)
...
Post by Robinsons
Did I mention your Conservative solution to maximize social good
is to keep all refugees out of Jefferson Parish, INDEFINITELY?
What's so good about Jefferson that they can't act like Houston,
or any other responsible community affected by the disaster?
Ummm, devastation and a recovery effort that would be overwhelmed by
refugees?
Post by Robinsons
And house them as far from the Orleans metro area, and not allow
them to leave until they have demonstrated an ability to purchase
a house, get a job, etc. ELSEWHERE, but not in Orleans and Jefferson,
where they are not welcome?
Break out the tinfoil hats the satellites are back in your brain.
Post by Robinsons
(amongst numerous OTHER rural parishes, where they are also not welcome,
in Louisiana, one of the most racist states in the union?? My folks are
from Louisiana, Robert... and that's coming from someone who is fond of
the state. I know whereof I speak.)
Of course, of course. Now just calm down, here let the nice FEMA nurses
give you a shot of black sterilization and poor killing virus so you can
feel all better, there's a nice paranoid.
Post by Robinsons
Meanwhile, businesses are already hiring people FROM Jefferson
(white people) to assist corporate landowners (whose power never
went off) and contracting firms in the rebuilding effort.
Their power never went off and you see a problem? Give them a medal!
Post by Robinsons
To quote alt.hvac, the power is being turned on all over the place but
first the officials must ensure that "HOMEY DOESN'T HAVE THE STREETS."
Quite right. Can't let homey have none. Sad. You've really lost it.
Post by Robinsons
To do that, of course, a mass forcible evacuation is ordered and folks
are told "you will never be allowed to return to your homes, they will
be bulldozed." Sound familiar?
Sounds like all the other power grab conspiracy theories I've ever heard
yes.
Baxter
2005-09-13 15:05:55 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Gretna (Jefferson Parish) owns only a thin slice of the
Crescent City Bridge (the only bridge across the Mississippi.)
...
Post by Robinsons
Did I mention your Conservative solution to maximize social good
is to keep all refugees out of Jefferson Parish, INDEFINITELY?
What's so good about Jefferson that they can't act like Houston,
or any other responsible community affected by the disaster?
Ummm, devastation and a recovery effort that would be overwhelmed by
refugees?
Just let them die?

These are not refugees, Bobby. These are citizens - your neighbors.
Robert Cote
2005-09-13 15:19:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Gretna (Jefferson Parish) owns only a thin slice of the
Crescent City Bridge (the only bridge across the Mississippi.)
...
Post by Robinsons
Did I mention your Conservative solution to maximize social good
is to keep all refugees out of Jefferson Parish, INDEFINITELY?
What's so good about Jefferson that they can't act like Houston,
or any other responsible community affected by the disaster?
Ummm, devastation and a recovery effort that would be overwhelmed by
refugees?
Just let them die?
These are not refugees, Bobby. These are citizens - your neighbors.
Send them to where they knew there were services to handle them were.
Sancho Panza
2005-09-13 15:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Gretna (Jefferson Parish) owns only a thin slice of the
Crescent City Bridge (the only bridge across the Mississippi.)
...
Post by Robinsons
Did I mention your Conservative solution to maximize social good
is to keep all refugees out of Jefferson Parish, INDEFINITELY?
What's so good about Jefferson that they can't act like Houston,
or any other responsible community affected by the disaster?
Ummm, devastation and a recovery effort that would be overwhelmed by
refugees?
Just let them die?
These are not refugees, Bobby. These are citizens - your neighbors.
Send them to where they knew there were services to handle them were.
What was that city that invited 1,000? Wasn't in the Northwest? Ahhh, yes,
Portland. Anybody ever find out how many ended up being cared for in that
unused high school building?
Robert Cote
2005-09-13 16:03:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sancho Panza
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Gretna (Jefferson Parish) owns only a thin slice of the
Crescent City Bridge (the only bridge across the Mississippi.)
...
Post by Robinsons
Did I mention your Conservative solution to maximize social good
is to keep all refugees out of Jefferson Parish, INDEFINITELY?
What's so good about Jefferson that they can't act like Houston,
or any other responsible community affected by the disaster?
Ummm, devastation and a recovery effort that would be overwhelmed by
refugees?
Just let them die?
These are not refugees, Bobby. These are citizens - your neighbors.
Send them to where they knew there were services to handle them were.
What was that city that invited 1,000? Wasn't in the Northwest? Ahhh, yes,
Portland. Anybody ever find out how many ended up being cared for in that
unused high school building?
From the mayor's website:

"No survivors will be housed at the former high school."

"federal officials say they are no longer planning to airlift survivors
to Oregon"
Baxter
2005-09-13 01:42:26 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any individual
cost to maximize societal good.
Translation: "me first"
Robert Cote
2005-09-13 02:13:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any individual
cost to maximize societal good.
Translation: "me first"
Your selfishness is not the issue.
Baxter
2005-09-13 15:06:49 UTC
Permalink
--
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Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
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Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any individual
cost to maximize societal good.
Translation: "me first"
Your selfishness is not the issue.
'Smatter? Guilty conscience?
Robert Cote
2005-09-13 15:21:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any
individual cost to maximize societal good.
Translation: "me first"
Your selfishness is not the issue.
'Smatter? Guilty conscience?
It's fairly well established that you are without conscience. Keep
posting along these lines to prove it.
Access Systems
2005-09-13 14:43:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
--
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any individual
cost to maximize societal good.
Translation: "me first"
but the "Lifeboat" solution also REQUIRES that the boat be filled to
capacity before refusing to save additional people. I have seen no
evidence that Gretna was TRUELY full to sinking.

Bob
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THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be
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Robert Cote
2005-09-13 15:08:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Access Systems
Post by Baxter
--
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any individual
cost to maximize societal good.
Translation: "me first"
but the "Lifeboat" solution also REQUIRES that the boat be filled to
capacity before refusing to save additional people. I have seen no
evidence that Gretna was TRUELY full to sinking.
Let's eat Johnson. http://mzonline.com/bin/view/Python/LifeBoatSketch

Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the people
and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil disorder? Monday
morning quarterbacking on a situation that was always lose-lose.
Baxter
2005-09-13 15:23:03 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Robert Cote
Post by Access Systems
Post by Baxter
--
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any individual
cost to maximize societal good.
Translation: "me first"
but the "Lifeboat" solution also REQUIRES that the boat be filled to
capacity before refusing to save additional people. I have seen no
evidence that Gretna was TRUELY full to sinking.
Let's eat Johnson. http://mzonline.com/bin/view/Python/LifeBoatSketch
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the people
and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil disorder? Monday
morning quarterbacking on a situation that was always lose-lose.
A lot of that "looting" was actually bunches of white crackers riding around
in their trucks looking for blacks to shoot.

They could also have given them a dab of food and water and made them keep
moving - instead of wanting them to sit there and die.
Robert Cote
2005-09-13 15:55:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
--
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Access Systems
Post by Baxter
--
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
civilization down to the lowest common denominator. Conservatives
understand the necessity of maintaining minimum order at any
individual
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Access Systems
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
cost to maximize societal good.
Translation: "me first"
but the "Lifeboat" solution also REQUIRES that the boat be filled to
capacity before refusing to save additional people. I have seen no
evidence that Gretna was TRUELY full to sinking.
Let's eat Johnson. http://mzonline.com/bin/view/Python/LifeBoatSketch
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the people
and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil disorder? Monday
morning quarterbacking on a situation that was always lose-lose.
A lot of that "looting" was actually bunches of white crackers riding around
in their trucks looking for blacks to shoot.
"Crackers" is every bit as abhorrent as "niggers" but for some reason
certain posters see no problem with one yet never use the other. Your
comment is tantamount to fomenting violence. What if someone believed
your lies? People could die. Good thing no one believes anything you
say anymore.
Baxter
2005-09-14 01:48:10 UTC
Permalink
--
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Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
A lot of that "looting" was actually bunches of white crackers riding around
in their trucks looking for blacks to shoot.
"Crackers" is every bit as abhorrent as "niggers" but for some reason
certain posters see no problem with one yet never use the other. Your
comment is tantamount to fomenting violence. What if someone believed
your lies? People could die. Good thing no one believes anything you
say anymore.
From the news account, the only things missing were the white hoods and
burning crosses.
Robert Cote
2005-09-21 19:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
A lot of that "looting" was actually bunches of white crackers riding
around in their trucks looking for blacks to shoot.
"Crackers" is every bit as abhorrent as "niggers" but for some reason
certain posters see no problem with one yet never use the other. Your
comment is tantamount to fomenting violence. What if someone believed
your lies? People could die. Good thing no one believes anything you
say anymore.
From the news account, the only things missing were the white hoods and
burning crosses.
I missed it. Were any news organizations using "crackers" and making
the claims you make or is this yet another case of Leroy Baxter inciting
racial discord?
Baxter
2005-09-22 03:34:08 UTC
Permalink
--
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Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
A lot of that "looting" was actually bunches of white crackers riding
around in their trucks looking for blacks to shoot.
"Crackers" is every bit as abhorrent as "niggers" but for some reason
certain posters see no problem with one yet never use the other. Your
comment is tantamount to fomenting violence. What if someone believed
your lies? People could die. Good thing no one believes anything you
say anymore.
From the news account, the only things missing were the white hoods and
burning crosses.
I missed it. Were any news organizations using "crackers" and making
the claims you make or is this yet another case of Leroy Baxter inciting
racial discord?
Yawn.
Robert Cote
2005-09-22 13:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
--
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
A lot of that "looting" was actually bunches of white crackers
riding
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
around in their trucks looking for blacks to shoot.
"Crackers" is every bit as abhorrent as "niggers" but for some reason
certain posters see no problem with one yet never use the other. Your
comment is tantamount to fomenting violence. What if someone believed
your lies? People could die. Good thing no one believes anything you
say anymore.
From the news account, the only things missing were the white hoods and
burning crosses.
I missed it. Were any news organizations using "crackers" and making
the claims you make or is this yet another case of Leroy Baxter inciting
racial discord?
Yawn.
Oh, so the news media weren't the racists here, you were.

Access Systems
2005-09-13 17:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Access Systems
Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
Especially the part about pedestrians on the bridge.
Classic "lifeboat" ethical problem. Socialists would prefer dragging
Translation: "me first"
but the "Lifeboat" solution also REQUIRES that the boat be filled to
capacity before refusing to save additional people. I have seen no
evidence that Gretna was TRUELY full to sinking.
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the people
and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil disorder? Monday
morning quarterbacking on a situation that was always lose-lose.
having driven over that bridge more than a few times I can assure you
anyone who treked up that bridge did not have looting on their mind. and
it would not have been that hard to have checked for weapons anyone
crossing the bridge. my understanding was that the water system did not
fail in Gretna how hard would it have been to hook a spigot up to a fire
hydrant and hand people paper cups of water, those people didn't want to
stay they wanted out.

from people who were there, the "looting" was not very widespread and very
little if you exclude the people who broke into places for food and water.

when does survival of your family and children become looting when help
never comes???


Want a reality check, go to http://www.noaa.gov and view the arial photos
taken by Noaa on the 31st of Aug at the peak of the flooding, the
resolution is such that you can see individuals, many packed onto small
sections of roadway trapped by water on one side and lines of vehicles on
the other. talk about being abandoned by your fellow man it was tragic
and needless.

Bob
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Hans-Joachim Zierke
2005-09-14 08:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the people
and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil disorder?
If those displaced persons where all "looters", if people in a flooded
city are a "civil disorder" problem, I'm one of them.

You are a truely sick person. If there are more uncivilized animals like
you, it's really no wonder, that so many second-class citizens had to die.

Fuck off.




Hans-Joachim
Robert Cote
2005-09-14 13:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Robert Cote
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the people
and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil disorder?
If those displaced persons where all "looters", if people in a flooded
city are a "civil disorder" problem, I'm one of them.
You are a truely sick person. If there are more uncivilized animals like
you, it's really no wonder, that so many second-class citizens had to die.
Fuck off.
Good to hear that Germany has removed all immigration restrictions.
After all those people are just looking for a place to live a better
life. It would take a truly sick culture to knowingly turn away the
needy just looking for some help or even just an opportunity to help
themselves. Of course not but the only difference is that one was a
considered and deliberate policy and the other was a hodge-podge
reaction to an overwhelming emergency. Which is worse?
Baxter
2005-09-14 14:33:17 UTC
Permalink
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Robert Cote
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the people
and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil disorder?
If those displaced persons where all "looters", if people in a flooded
city are a "civil disorder" problem, I'm one of them.
You are a truely sick person. If there are more uncivilized animals like
you, it's really no wonder, that so many second-class citizens had to die.
Fuck off.
Good to hear that Germany has removed all immigration restrictions.
After all those people are just looking for a place to live a better
life. It would take a truly sick culture to knowingly turn away the
needy just looking for some help or even just an opportunity to help
themselves. Of course not but the only difference is that one was a
considered and deliberate policy and the other was a hodge-podge
reaction to an overwhelming emergency. Which is worse?
Then you condemn the Gretna police?
Robert Cote
2005-09-14 18:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Robert Cote
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the people
and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil disorder?
If those displaced persons where all "looters", if people in a flooded
city are a "civil disorder" problem, I'm one of them.
You are a truely sick person. If there are more uncivilized animals like
you, it's really no wonder, that so many second-class citizens had to die.
Fuck off.
Good to hear that Germany has removed all immigration restrictions.
After all those people are just looking for a place to live a better
life. It would take a truly sick culture to knowingly turn away the
needy just looking for some help or even just an opportunity to help
themselves. Of course not but the only difference is that one was a
considered and deliberate policy and the other was a hodge-podge
reaction to an overwhelming emergency. Which is worse?
I was wondering if anyone could point me to the German response to the
heat wave in 2003 that killed 15,000 in France? The victims were
predominately poor and elderly. I'd hate to think such a generous
nation failed to respond appropriately to a natural disaster.
Robert Cote
2005-09-15 14:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Robert Cote
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the people
and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil disorder?
If those displaced persons where all "looters", if people in a flooded
city are a "civil disorder" problem, I'm one of them.
You are a truely sick person. If there are more uncivilized animals like
you, it's really no wonder, that so many second-class citizens had to die.
Fuck off.
Good to hear that Germany has removed all immigration restrictions.
After all those people are just looking for a place to live a better
life. It would take a truly sick culture to knowingly turn away the
needy just looking for some help or even just an opportunity to help
themselves. Of course not but the only difference is that one was a
considered and deliberate policy and the other was a hodge-podge
reaction to an overwhelming emergency. Which is worse?
I was wondering if anyone could point me to the German response to the
heat wave in 2003 that killed 15,000 in France? The victims were
predominately poor and elderly. I'd hate to think such a generous
nation failed to respond appropriately to a natural disaster.
I was wondering why no one has taken Hans-Joachim Zierke to task for
calling the unfortunate victims "second-class citizens." Surely if I
had been this racist and classist the uproar would have been tremendous.
What are the standards of behavior that allows some people to be racist
and classist and and tell others to "fuck off" with impunity?
James Robinson
2005-09-15 17:00:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Robert Cote
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the
people and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil
disorder?
If those displaced persons where all "looters", if people in a
flooded city are a "civil disorder" problem, I'm one of them.
You are a truely sick person. If there are more uncivilized
animals like you, it's really no wonder, that so many
second-class citizens had to die.
Fuck off.
Good to hear that Germany has removed all immigration restrictions.
After all those people are just looking for a place to live a
better life. It would take a truly sick culture to knowingly turn
away the needy just looking for some help or even just an
opportunity to help themselves. Of course not but the only
difference is that one was a considered and deliberate policy and
the other was a hodge-podge reaction to an overwhelming emergency.
Which is worse?
I was wondering if anyone could point me to the German response to
the heat wave in 2003 that killed 15,000 in France? The victims were
predominately poor and elderly. I'd hate to think such a generous
nation failed to respond appropriately to a natural disaster.
I was wondering why no one has taken Hans-Joachim Zierke to task for
calling the unfortunate victims "second-class citizens." Surely if I
had been this racist and classist the uproar would have been
tremendous. What are the standards of behavior that allows some
people to be racist and classist and and tell others to "fuck off"
with impunity?
Fuck off.

I can't describe what standard I used for that, other than you invited
the comment.
Robert Cote
2005-09-15 17:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Robert Cote
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the
people and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil
disorder?
If those displaced persons where all "looters", if people in a
flooded city are a "civil disorder" problem, I'm one of them.
You are a truely sick person. If there are more uncivilized
animals like you, it's really no wonder, that so many
second-class citizens had to die.
Fuck off.
Good to hear that Germany has removed all immigration restrictions.
After all those people are just looking for a place to live a
better life. It would take a truly sick culture to knowingly turn
away the needy just looking for some help or even just an
opportunity to help themselves. Of course not but the only
difference is that one was a considered and deliberate policy and
the other was a hodge-podge reaction to an overwhelming emergency.
Which is worse?
I was wondering if anyone could point me to the German response to
the heat wave in 2003 that killed 15,000 in France? The victims were
predominately poor and elderly. I'd hate to think such a generous
nation failed to respond appropriately to a natural disaster.
I was wondering why no one has taken Hans-Joachim Zierke to task for
calling the unfortunate victims "second-class citizens." Surely if I
had been this racist and classist the uproar would have been
tremendous. What are the standards of behavior that allows some
people to be racist and classist and and tell others to "fuck off"
with impunity?
Fuck off.
I can't describe what standard I used for that, other than you invited
the comment.
That's pretty much what I was expecting. I wasn't sure if you were a
racist or classist but you certainly have proven yourself a defender of
racism and classism and defender of racists and classists. I notice
also the deafening silence at actually answering the questions. You
tell me to fuck off because you are uncomfortable with the issue raised.
I know why and the silence tells me you know why as well. I think you
are lying, especially to yourself when you claim you don't know what
double standards you used to justify telling me to fuck off.
James Robinson
2005-09-15 18:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Robert Cote
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed
the people and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting
civil disorder?
If those displaced persons where all "looters", if people in a
flooded city are a "civil disorder" problem, I'm one of them.
You are a truely sick person. If there are more uncivilized
animals like you, it's really no wonder, that so many
second-class citizens had to die.
Fuck off.
Good to hear that Germany has removed all immigration
restrictions.
After all those people are just looking for a place to live a
better life. It would take a truly sick culture to knowingly
turn away the needy just looking for some help or even just an
opportunity to help themselves. Of course not but the only
difference is that one was a considered and deliberate policy
and the other was a hodge-podge reaction to an overwhelming
emergency. Which is worse?
I was wondering if anyone could point me to the German response to
the heat wave in 2003 that killed 15,000 in France? The victims
were predominately poor and elderly. I'd hate to think such a
generous nation failed to respond appropriately to a natural
disaster.
I was wondering why no one has taken Hans-Joachim Zierke to task
for calling the unfortunate victims "second-class citizens."
Surely if I had been this racist and classist the uproar would have
been tremendous. What are the standards of behavior that allows
some people to be racist and classist and and tell others to "fuck
off" with impunity?
Fuck off.
I can't describe what standard I used for that, other than you
invited the comment.
That's pretty much what I was expecting. I wasn't sure if you were a
racist or classist but you certainly have proven yourself a defender
of racism and classism and defender of racists and classists. I
notice also the deafening silence at actually answering the questions.
You tell me to fuck off because you are uncomfortable with the issue
raised. I know why and the silence tells me you know why as well. I
think you are lying, especially to yourself when you claim you don't
know what double standards you used to justify telling me to fuck off.
You read to much into things. You are far too defensive. I told you to
FO because you wanted to see what standards people would use to do so,
and it felt good to boot. Nothing more, nothing less. There was no
other intent implied.
Robert Cote
2005-09-15 19:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Robinson
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Robert Cote
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed
the people and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting
civil disorder?
If those displaced persons where all "looters", if people in a
flooded city are a "civil disorder" problem, I'm one of them.
You are a truely sick person. If there are more uncivilized
animals like you, it's really no wonder, that so many
second-class citizens had to die.
Fuck off.
Good to hear that Germany has removed all immigration
restrictions.
After all those people are just looking for a place to live a
better life. It would take a truly sick culture to knowingly
turn away the needy just looking for some help or even just an
opportunity to help themselves. Of course not but the only
difference is that one was a considered and deliberate policy
and the other was a hodge-podge reaction to an overwhelming
emergency. Which is worse?
I was wondering if anyone could point me to the German response to
the heat wave in 2003 that killed 15,000 in France? The victims
were predominately poor and elderly. I'd hate to think such a
generous nation failed to respond appropriately to a natural
disaster.
I was wondering why no one has taken Hans-Joachim Zierke to task
for calling the unfortunate victims "second-class citizens."
Surely if I had been this racist and classist the uproar would have
been tremendous. What are the standards of behavior that allows
some people to be racist and classist and and tell others to "fuck
off" with impunity?
Fuck off.
I can't describe what standard I used for that, other than you
invited the comment.
That's pretty much what I was expecting. I wasn't sure if you were a
racist or classist but you certainly have proven yourself a defender
of racism and classism and defender of racists and classists. I
notice also the deafening silence at actually answering the questions.
You tell me to fuck off because you are uncomfortable with the issue
raised. I know why and the silence tells me you know why as well. I
think you are lying, especially to yourself when you claim you don't
know what double standards you used to justify telling me to fuck off.
You read to much into things. You are far too defensive. I told you to
FO because you wanted to see what standards people would use to do so,
and it felt good to boot. Nothing more, nothing less. There was no
other intent implied.
You are in denial. You'd never put up personally with treatment you see
being dished out to others. See a parallel with the disaster comments?

You are defending someone and siding with someone who called the
residents of New Orleans second class citizens. All this talk of the
thin veneer of civilization and the people supposedly sensitive to the
issue are the ones telling others to fuck off. You are in such denial
that you think I invited your telling me to fuck off. Not only did you
do that but you thumbed your nose at the actual invitation to explain
why this happens. That's okay. Everyone knows now exactly why.
Personally I'm gratified that you are a self admitted racist. It places
all your other comments in a clearer perspective. Not only couldn't I
call you a racist, I wouldn't. This is why my questions are so
uncomfortable, if only I'd sink to you level you could rightly dismiss
me for being a vicious, insulting, crude troglodyte. Here I am
advocating bringing order to chaos to protect as many as quickly as
possible and the racists are attacking me, preferring instead to let
anarchy reign hurting the poorest and least able to fend for themselves.
Thus the transit agenda is again revealed.
Krzysztof Zietara
2005-09-14 14:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Seriously, what if the sheriffs had stood aside and allowed the people
and looting to spill over? Aiding and fomenting civil disorder?
http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/63014.html

You wouldn't want "these people" around, would you? They're poor,
probably with criminal past and they don't belong in nice, clean
neighborhoods.

Nice rationalization on your part.

Tarhimdugurth
--
----[Krzysztof Ziętara]----------------[0.52336448598131 sjRRW]----------
Since using your shampoo, my hair has come alive. Signed: Medusa.
John R Cambron
2005-09-13 14:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Excuse me, may I butt in here?

Did either one of you happen to read this.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm
--
John in the sand box of Marylands eastern shore.
Robert Cote
2005-09-13 14:59:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by John R Cambron
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Excuse me, may I butt in here?
Did either one of you happen to read this.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm
Thanks, good points.
Baxter
2005-09-13 15:14:34 UTC
Permalink
--
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Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
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Post by Robert Cote
Post by John R Cambron
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Excuse me, may I butt in here?
Did either one of you happen to read this.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm
Thanks, good points.
Propaganda points, that is. And half of them outright lies.
Robert Cote
2005-09-13 15:22:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
--
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Post by Robert Cote
Post by John R Cambron
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Excuse me, may I butt in here?
Did either one of you happen to read this.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm
Thanks, good points.
Propaganda points, that is. And half of them outright lies.
I personally loved [directed at the media]:

"We do not yet have teleporter or replicator technology like you saw on
'Star Trek' in college between hookah hits and waiting to pick up your
worthless communications degree while the grown-ups actually engaged in
the recovery effort were studying engineering.
John R Cambron
2005-09-13 15:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by John R Cambron
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Excuse me, may I butt in here?
Did either one of you happen to read this.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm
Thanks, good points.
Reality tends to trump rhetoric.

What I find tragic about destruction from this storm is most
if not all of the attention about who did what and when was it
done or not done is concentrated on New Orleans.
--
John in the sand box of Marylands eastern shore.
Robert Cote
2005-09-13 15:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by John R Cambron
Post by Robert Cote
Post by John R Cambron
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Excuse me, may I butt in here?
Did either one of you happen to read this.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm
Thanks, good points.
Reality tends to trump rhetoric.
What I find tragic about destruction from this storm is most
if not all of the attention about who did what and when was it
done or not done is concentrated on New Orleans.
Journalists are selfish, self-centered urbanites. I used to run into
this all the time when I lived in Massachusetts. People would ask what
part of Boston I lived in. Now living in SoCal people ask what part of
LA I call home.

No doubt part of the focus is/was because big cities are the most
dysfunctional and the most fragile. The disaster shows one thing many
don't want to hear; the big cities are on permanent life support.
Robinsons
2005-09-13 20:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by John R Cambron
What I find tragic about destruction from this storm is most
if not all of the attention about who did what and when was it
done or not done is concentrated on New Orleans.
What's tragic about that?

Did officials prevent survivors in Gulfport from moving north
of the railroad tracks on foot in an effort to keep "those people
who decided to remain behind, looters and shiftless individuals"
from leaving the area south of the railroad tracks?

Come back when you know something about Louisiana, John.
My family has a road in Northern Louisiana named after us.
My folks went to LSU. Most of my folks live in Houston TX
now, and they are just as pissed off about what's going on.

--BER
John R Cambron
2005-09-14 06:01:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robinsons
Post by John R Cambron
What I find tragic about destruction from this storm is most
if not all of the attention about who did what and when was it
done or not done is concentrated on New Orleans.
What's tragic about that?
The blame game is concentrated on New Orleans, Like the article
said the area that suffered affects of the storm is an "area the
size of England".
--
John in the sand box of Marylands eastern shore.
JG
2005-09-21 22:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by John R Cambron
Post by Robinsons
Post by John R Cambron
What I find tragic about destruction from this storm is most
if not all of the attention about who did what and when was it
done or not done is concentrated on New Orleans.
What's tragic about that?
The blame game is concentrated on New Orleans, Like the article
said the area that suffered affects of the storm is an "area the
size of England".
Including Lake Ponch. in the area? Why not include the GOM and
make it the size of France?

JG
Post by John R Cambron
--
John in the sand box of Marylands eastern shore.
Robinsons
2005-09-13 20:42:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by John R Cambron
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Excuse me, may I butt in here?
Did either one of you happen to read this.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm
John: INCORRECT. You are being Lied to.

Lets start with the "mass evacuation" bit: I suggest you question
your priorities that these people needed to be scattered all over
the fucking globe. The so-called refugees were told by New Orleans
officials that they will not be allowed to return to their homes.
Their homes will be condemned, their licensed firearms confiscated,
their pets will be systemsatically destroyed. Meanwhile, affluent
whites are being let back into the city to repair their homes.
Having issued this ridiculous order (continue to move as far away
as possble, DO NOT stage inner city evacuees in Jefferson, DO NOT
stage supplies in Jefferson, even as the lights are being turned on
there; DO NOT stage in Algiers section of New Orleans (dry) where
the bridge ends) -- they shot at people to keep them from evacuating
on foot. They pulled over and arrested folks leaving the city in
commandeered vehicles in large numbers (200 vehicles, mosly trucks
filled with people). Only approved buses OUT of the state were
allowed past - no parish in Louisiana (except for nearby Houma)
did anything official to welcome people.

Let's follow with the "no working Airports" bit. You lied to me, John!
Tsk tsk:

Keesler Air Base, THE Gulf Coast Rescue Base was badly damaged, but the
runway was fully operational:

--------Forwarded Message--------

Major Debrah Hedding (Ret.) writes:


Before and after Desert Storm, I was in an Air Force Reserve search and
rescue unit in Portland, Oregon. MOBILITY was my middle name. This was a
full time mission assigned to the Air Force Reserve. Our helicopter and
C-130 crews deployed on A MOMENT'S NOTICE to pluck people off mountains,
out
of swollen rivers, out of the forests - some injured, some not, some dead.
Lives were risked to go into the blast zone to save people from the
errupting Mt. St. Helens. We flew para-rescuers to Homestead, FL to save
victims of Hurricane Andrew. We flew rescuers to San Francisco after the
killer earthquakes in Oakland. None of these people had to asked to be
saved. THIS WAS OUR JOB. We mobilized on A MOMENT'S NOTICE. That was the
name of our unit's newspaper. I was the PAO that produced it and worked
with the media who covered the courageous deeds of my colleagues.


I spent my last 6 years working full time for the USAFR in California
airlift units. MOBILITY was my middle name. The aircraft in my units flew
HUMANITARIAN AIRLIFT missions. We flew water purifications systems and
medical help to refugees in Rwanda. We flew water delivery systems and
medical help to the refugees in Somalia. We flew canine search teams to
Oklahoma City after the bombings. We airlifted and air-dropped food and
supplies to North Dakota after a killer blizzard. MOBILITY was our game,
and when we took off, you can be sure that help was on the way.

SHOCK and AWE describes me now. I am in total SHOCK over how our Gulf
Coast neighbors - TAX-PAYERS who pay for our military forces -- were left
to suffer and die, day after day. What happened to MOBILITY???? What
happened to HUMANITARIAN AIRLIFT????


Then there's AWE - as in "awe shit" after I received the Keesler AFB
damage report from a group of former USAF radar operators and ground
controllers. I went to tech school at Keesler in 1972 at the height of the
Cambodian bombing raids, to be trained to tell fighter pilots where to go
in the war
zone. But the "awe-shit" reaction was not because of flashbacks to that
other war. It was in knowing that RESCUE and MOBILITY and HUMANITARIAN
AIRLIFT into and out of Keesler AFB was possible before and after Katrina.
These assets could have been staged somewhere nearby, gee - like at Scott
AFB in Illinois - HEADQUARTERS FOR THE USAF'S AIR MOBILITY COMMAND - and
then flown in to Keesler. There could have been a MASS EVAC out of Keesler
after the 'cane. The Air Force practices these every day, all over the
world.

I am too emotional to write to the folks at the Air Mobility Command or
anywhere else. But I have included the string of addresses from those who
were sending around the Keesler Damage Report. I urge you to write to
them, to your congressional leaders, to anyone that could make a
difference. Ask them what the hell they spent our Gulf Coast neighbor's
tax dollars on, because we know it sure wasn't them. And tell them I sent you.


Debra K. Hedding, Major, USAFR, retired
Vietnam, Desert Storm, Cold War
VFP Chapter 119 - Tampa Bay

Folks,
Here's what has happened to our own USAF brethren
at Keesler AFB, Gulfport MS:

- Base housing was largely destroyed by a 25 foot wave
- There's 4 feet of mud in Maj Gen Utterback's house (2 AF/CC)
- MSG/CC house burned to the ground (gas leak caught fire)
- 6000 USAF members and their families are living in shelters
- The power will be out there for at least 3 weeks
- The 2nd largest USAF hospital (at Keesler) is closed
-- Seawater got into the generator and they have no power
- Commissary/BX mostly destroyed
- Runway is operational; it's the only open airfield in the area
-- Day/VFR conditions only
- Gulfport Airport is closed for the foreseeable future
- The fence around the base is severely damaged
- Keesler had looters last night
-- Maxwell AFB is sending an SF detachment to reinforce the Keesler SF
- Parts of I-10 are under water; at least one major bridge is down
- Keesler has almost no communications (landline or cell)
-- They are relying primarily on radios

//SIGNED//

*HERIBERTO "EDDIE" GARCIA, MSgt, USAF*

*Superintendent, Executive Support Division*

*402 Scott Drive** Unit 2A2*

*Scott AFB IL 62225-5308*

*Comm (618) 229-3614*

*DSN 779-3614*

*eddie.garcia-***@scott.af.mil* <eddie.garcia-***@scott.af.mil>
Tim Kynerd
2005-09-13 22:10:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by John R Cambron
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Excuse me, may I butt in here?
Did either one of you happen to read this.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm
To cite just one of the inaccuracies in that article:

"The levee broke Tuesday morning. Buses had to be rounded up and driven
from Houston to New Orleans across debris-strewn roads. The first ones
arrived Wednesday evening. That seems pretty fast to me."

The levee broke late Monday morning.

The rest of the article looks to be on about the same level.
Sancho Panza
2005-09-14 02:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Kynerd
Post by John R Cambron
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Excuse me, may I butt in here?
Did either one of you happen to read this.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm
"The levee broke Tuesday morning. Buses had to be rounded up and driven
from Houston to New Orleans across debris-strewn roads. The first ones
arrived Wednesday evening. That seems pretty fast to me."
The levee broke late Monday morning.
The rest of the article looks to be on about the same level.
Your source is not known. Here is one that seems more authoritative:


"NEW ORLEANS, Aug. 30 -- A day after New Orleans thought it had narrowly
escaped the worst of Hurricane Katrina's wrath, water broke through two
levees on Tuesday"

NY Times 8/31/05
Robert Cote
2005-09-21 20:04:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Kynerd
Post by John R Cambron
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Robinsons
No response eh? Read the article.
Nobody wants to respond to slanted "thin veneer of civilization"
articles. There's nothing to be gained.
Excuse me, may I butt in here?
Did either one of you happen to read this.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05254/568876.stm
"The levee broke Tuesday morning. Buses had to be rounded up and driven
from Houston to New Orleans across debris-strewn roads. The first ones
arrived Wednesday evening. That seems pretty fast to me."
The levee broke late Monday morning.
The rest of the article looks to be on about the same level.
Thanks Tim. Now, a week later the ultraBush Washington Post says:

Aug. 29 _ Katrina, a Category 4 hurricane ...One New Orleans levee
breaks.

Aug. 30 _ ... Second levee breaks in New Orleans, flooding covers 80
percent of city.

See the problem with the first draft of history?
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